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  1. #31

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    Reminds me of conversations about DVD-Audio discs and SACDs from a decade ago. The Blu-Ray format seems to me to be an enhanced DVD-Audio format, but mainly only in that a display isn't needed to make the Blu-Ray discs usable. Good decision on that. DVD-Audio was capable of 192/24 quality, but not all discs used that capability because of the source material available.

    The pricing is too high on the Blu-Ray discs, in my opinion, for what is provided. Hopefully they'll come down to below $20 a piece once production is up. I'm interested in a couple titles available now that I don't remember being on DVD-Audio before and may pick those up soon anyway. If the discs can be produced on any standard Blu-Ray production line, that should help with costs. The SACD format suffers now and has for years because of limited production capacity.

    I would recommend paying attention to reviews of the Blu-Ray discs though, because some of the high-resolution releases from the early DVD-Audio and SACD days weren't much better than standard CD in sound quality.

  2. #32

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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueFox
    There is no technical reason, or data, to state or infer that a DSD file will sound better than a high-res PCM file.
    Quote Originally Posted by BlueFox
    Exactly. Somebody finds a line that says their baby isn't ugly, and that becomes the entire rationale.
    Well, you're the one that said there was no technical reason or data. A technical reason/data was presented and now you want to dismiss it? Seriously!?!

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueFox
    Sounds like Roger Russell fans.
    That would be someone believing Redbook CD is as good as it gets and I don't see anyone here saying that.

    Times change, and technology changes. Like it or not, what was best yesterday is average today.
    You do realize that Blu-ray Audio is the same thing as that old average technology DVD-A, right?
    'Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end."

  3. #33

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    Tabula Rasa
    Jie-Bing Chen, Bela Fleck, Vishwa Mohan Bhatt |
    Format: SACD $59.00 + $3.99 shipping
    $228.00 + $3.99 shipping WTF ?????
    MP3 $8.99 DSD $24.98*

    *Recorded straight to 1-inch analog tape on a custom-built, all-triode tube recording chain. Mastered direct to DSD on a Sonoma system by Chris Rice and authored by Gus Skinas.

    The WAF of physical media = "NO MORE CDs!" Although my Sony $98 BDP-S590 claims to play SACDs, it looks like I'll never know for sure.

  4. #34

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    Personally, I wouldn't bother buying any SACD's if that is all you have to play them back on as you're not going to hear what SACD is capable of.

    That said, if those are SHM-SACD discs you are looking at they are, for the most part, a cut above your average SACD in sound quality and packaging.

    I buy them from here, which is cheaper than your source, http://www.cdjapan.co.jp/popular_formats/SHM-SACD/
    'Political Correctness'.........defined

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  5. #35

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    The Breakfast In America blu-ray was $25, the SACD due out next week is listing for $80 at Amazon.com, $60 on Amazon.ca.
    That SHM-SACD is $41.00 from CD Japan.
    'Political Correctness'.........defined

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  6. #36

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    Quote Originally Posted by F1nut View Post
    That SHM-SACD is $41.00 from CD Japan.
    Got to admit, I'd really like to hear a copy of that to compare. Nothing like sizing up 2 different formats with your own ears on your own equipment.

  7. #37

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    Quote Originally Posted by F1nut View Post
    You do realize that Blu-ray Audio is the same thing as that old average technology DVD-A, right?
    Yes same hi rez linear PCM 24/192k capability.Average? Not in the least.

  8. #38

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    Come on Fred, keep up. Go back and read BlueFox's comments and I believe it will all make sense.
    'Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end."

  9. #39

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  10. #40

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    Quote Originally Posted by F1nut View Post
    Well, you're the one that said there was no technical reason or data. A technical reason/data was presented and now you want to dismiss it?
    Well, this thread is about Blueray audio, and Headrott had to say that SACD will sound better. Pulling a quote out of an article does not provide any proof that an SACD will sound better. It is just a quote, and it wasn't even related to sound quality. It is mentioning a difference between two technologies, not saying because of this feature SACD will sound better.

    While SACD and high-res files are different technologies, the end result will be the same. The final 'sound' will be determined by the gear, cables, power, and room. Not the file format.

  11. #41

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    Tabula Rasa
    $30 per SACD (All prices include shipping and any applicable sales tax.)

    To order send either an International money order or a bank draft made payable to Water Lily Acoustics to the address below.

    Water Lily Acoustics
    p.o. box 91448
    Santa Barbara, CA. 93190 USA

    http://www.waterlilyacoustics.com/main.htm

    Amazon (source of prices above) reviews say Tabula Rasa better than Ry Cooder, V.M. Bhatt — A Meeting by the River, SACD.

    DSD download direct from Salina, KS:

    http://store.acousticsounds.com/d/94...a-DSD_Download

    The Sony SACDP was purchased for blu-ray duty until I open the lid on my BDP-51D & put my prosthetic eye in search mode for dust & dog hair. The Pioneer (w/firmware update) was refusing to play too many Netflix blu-rays. Not ONE refusal w/Sony!

    For reference sake, ~ 1969 I owned a mono Sony cassette recorder (size of a suitcase), which used a cassette ~ 1/2 the thickness (other dimensions similar) of an 8-track. I replaced it with a Sony stereo 8-track recorder, until going to a TOTL Pioneer CT-F9191 in 1975. I never had the bad habit of purchasing new pre-recorded 8-tracks nor cassettes. Cuts were never broken by changing tracks/flipping a cassette.

    http://www.hifiengine.com/library/pi...ct-f9191.shtml

  12. #42

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    Is the 51 still playing red book? If so, I guarantee you the cd would sound better than any format on that sony. I hope you get it working the way you want it to again. It's an excellent player, built before the small footprint units started taking over the market.

    The sony bdp's are great pieces, but their audio sections are skimped on.
    Usher CP-6311, Shuguang S200MK, Shuguang S845MK, Pioneer BDP-51fd, Douglas IC's, AQ cv-8 SC's, Pangea/Douglas PC's, Epson 8100

  13. #43

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    Quote Originally Posted by DSkip View Post
    The sony bdp's are great pieces, but their audio sections are skimped on.
    I couldn't agree more. I have a Sony BDP-S580, and while it is great as a video player, it is definitely lacking as a music player. That is, at least through the 2 ch analog outs, I'm sure it would be ok as a transport to a DAC, or higher end A/V receiver via an HDMI connection..

    Honestly, when I was without a CD player for a few days last week, I did not feel like listening to CD's or SACD's at all with my BDP-S580 as my only source for playing them, it was not a pleasant experience. The Marantz I purchased has made me fall in love with listening to music again.. To me, that's plenty to be thankful this Thanksgiving...

    Edit: The 3 Blu-Ray audio discs in my collection do sound pretty decent (though not great) through the 2 ch analog outs (96/24) of the Sony, at least to these 'ol ears...
    Last edited by Rick88; 11-27-2013 at 11:03 PM.
    "Life is one grand, sweet song, so start the music." ~ Ronald Reagan

    "I love songs about horses, railroads, land, Judgment Day, family, hard times, whiskey, courtship, marriage, adultery, separation, murder, war, prison, rambling, damnation, home, salvation, death, pride, humor, piety, rebellion, patriotism, larceny, determination, tragedy, rowdiness, heartbreak and love. And Mother. And God." ~ Johnny Cash

  14. #44

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    Yes, the 51 doesn't seem to have any qualms about Redbook. I think my plan is to pop the lid, Dustoff & connect analog to the new TEAC ud-501 & rerip all my CDs to ALAC. As I read up on PureVinyl, it appears that my Apples all lack sufficient RAM to be top-notch. I'm working with Santa on that.

    The wife's ban on new CDs means she frowns of blu-ray purchases as well. I do enjoy Jeff Beck Live @ Ronnie Scott's quite a bit. Last night, I caught the wife playing a memory game on the iPad while sitting in front of the R channel RTiA9 as Emmylou's Stumble Into Grace was wified to the ATV. Turned the dBs down several notches w/out a response. Proves even she can't multitask beyond 2 diversions.

  15. #45

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    Quote Originally Posted by F1nut View Post
    I found this.




    Are there any high end Blu-ray audio only players on the market?
    I have not seen one if there is. Everyone is a Blu ray Video player. I honestly think it's a bit late to the party for things such as this. With all the Online High Rez Music you can purchase now, I just don't see the need for Physical Media anymore. I think the benefits outweigh the negatives in most cases. I do however like to hold a Jewel case and read but I'll gladly give that up for not having hundreds of discs everywhere that I have to store and clean all the time.

    When Blu ray Audio was coming out ,I'll admit I was very excited. But that really faded quickly. How many Discs are available now?
    Dan
    My personal quest is to save to world of bad audio, one thread at a time.

  16. #46

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    Quote Originally Posted by tonyb View Post
    LOL.....You guys crack me up. Like a bunch of dudes in the bathroom measuring d$cks.

    Basically what this all comes down to is splitting hairs. PCM...DSD...SACD...BR audio....as long as it sounds good to you, who gives a flying......you know what.

    Some of you guys act like audio is a race to squeeze out every last drop of resolution in a source component or file.....then throw it all 2 sheets to the wind by playing it all back on tube gear which isn't the most resolute. But tubes sure do add some soul, musicality to what hits it, that's the magic. I think there's a fine line between resolution and musicality, too much resolution sucks the musicality right out imho. If they can retain the musicality chasing the resolution, that's one thing, but so far I haven't seen or heard any evidence of that. Once I get an ear on DSD done right.....hello Rich....then I'll make some more conclusions. But so far, SACD sounds good if the recording is good, the bastard child redbook cd can sound just as good as some SACD, and to these ears anyway BR audio sounds just as fine as SACD......in as far as what I've heard to date anyway.

    Maybe some of the audio nerds like storing their music in 5-6 different formats, but the majority don't. This is why these constant format wars never take foot and remain a niche market. Digital files, good or bad is the future, that's where the most use will be, that's where the money will be to be made, thus the industry will follow suit. Anything that furthers the quality of digital files will be welcomed with open wallets, and the bean counters know this.
    I agree with you in all kinds of ways.
    Dan
    My personal quest is to save to world of bad audio, one thread at a time.

  17. #47

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    Leaving aside the discussion of which format sounds better, I just ripped my first Blueray audio disk, the Pure Audio version of Grrr! by The Rolling Stones. To do this I needed to buy a BR drive to attach to my computer, and two software programs.

    This is the drive I purchased from Amazon.
    http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00...?ie=UTF8&psc=1

    The software is one program to decrypt the files, and the other extracts the audio files to your hard drive. This link explains the two pieces of software needed.
    http://www.computeraudiophile.com/co...-ray-easy-way/

    So, how does it sound? Absolutely fantastic. These are the first high-res files I have tried, and they will not be the last. This Blueray Audio is a great idea so long as you rip them to a music server.

    Of course, nothing ever works like it should when dealing with computers, so I had these issues.

    1. Attaching the BR drive to my USB hub I got an over power error. I had to disconnect the hub, and attach the drive directly to the computer.

    2. The software for extracting the audio files showed no files even though they were decrypted. Then I again used the decryption software to rip the BR to my hard drive. This took about 30 minutes, and the extraction software was able to see the files.

    3. After this, it went rather smooth. While not a technical issue, this part was a pain in the butt. Since there was no metadata for the files, I had to edit the name for all 50 tracks in the extraction software. Once that was done I selected to encode the 96/24 files in ALAC to cut the storage space requirements in half. I have been very happy with ALAC for CD files, so why change now. Except they won't play. Need to contact Bryston about this deficiency.

    4. I then tried one file saved as FLAC. This worked, so I then went through the whole process again of editing 50 song titles, and extracting them as FLAC files.

    Once the files were extracted I copied them to backup, and onto the music server drive. Now I can easily select one file, or all files to play.

    Life is good. I can't wait for Exile on Main Street to arrive.

  18. #48

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    Glad your diggin' it Fox, but lets talk turkey here.

    That's way too much headaches for the average person, or not so techy consumer. The way hi-rez audio is today, it amounts to a hundred different trial balloons to see what sticks. When they come out with one device or one computer that is built for good audio, is easy to use, and comes with software designed for good audio, at a reasonable price, then it will take off. Just too many different ways to screw stuff up or this not working with that....blah blah.

    Some would say a higher end music server is such a device, but not really. While built for audio, your unable to add software to it like a computer. If they could take a good music server and incorporate that into a computer as an all in one with out compatibility issues, they'd have a seller.

    Something like a Q-sonix or Olive, where you just drop the cd in and your done. But able to do other tasks we normally do on a computer Kinda like what the OPPO 105 did in combining many different pieces of gear, to cover the main formats.....with ease. We need such a device for combining computers and good audio.

  19. #49

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    You can't stop progress, and some combination of streaming/server/computer I'm sure will be the way to travel. But I think it would be financially unwise to abandon a huge section of the baby boomers who wish to hold onto their shiny discs. Therefore,IMO, I think the death of that section of audio/video software will be very slow.

  20. #50

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    tony, your comments are again a reason why I'm so skiddish to jump into the DAC world until things even out a bit again or some outstanding product hits the shelves. The Oppo 105 is still on the top of my list, but at the same time, I can easily think of 2-3 other areas where that money would be put to better use at the moment. $1200 could completely redo the crossovers in my 6311's with Be tweeters and still leave about $600 left over to look into possible cable upgrades and/or better tubes or modifications to my monoblocks.
    Usher CP-6311, Shuguang S200MK, Shuguang S845MK, Pioneer BDP-51fd, Douglas IC's, AQ cv-8 SC's, Pangea/Douglas PC's, Epson 8100

  21. #51

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    Quote Originally Posted by tonyb View Post
    Glad your diggin' it Fox, but lets talk turkey here.

    That's way too much headaches for the average person, or not so techy consumer.
    I agree with that. However, now that I have it working, other rips should be much easier.

    The way hi-rez audio is today, it amounts to a hundred different trial balloons to see what sticks. When they come out with one device or one computer that is built for good audio, is easy to use, and comes with software designed for good audio, at a reasonable price, then it will take off. Just too many different ways to screw stuff up or this not working with that....blah blah.

    Some would say a higher end music server is such a device, but not really. While built for audio, your unable to add software to it like a computer. If they could take a good music server and incorporate that into a computer as an all in one with out compatibility issues, they'd have a seller.
    I disagree with this. Computers make terrible music servers. They have mechanical noisy fans, electrical noisy power supplies, and spinning vibration inducing hard drives. Everything needed to conspire against quality sound reproduction. Use a computer for computing, and background listening, and a dedicated music server for serious sound.

    The Bryston BDP1 and BDP2 are designed solely for accurate digital sound reproduction. They are Linux based computers with a Bryston designed power supply, and a Bryston enhanced high-end sound card (digital out). There are no fans, hard drives, or any other source of noise, and the drive attaches either through USB or NAS (BDP2). Files are read from the drive, stored in RAM, and then read from RAM for extremely low jitter.

    Even better, for the consumer, these devices are designed as a high-end advanced CD transport, but with much lower jitter. This means you just select via the remote a CD to play, and away it goes. Plus, you can select multiple CDs to play, put them in a random order, play random files from multiple CDs, create playlists of music types, create playlists of favorite songs, etc., etc.

    Other than getting files onto the hard drive, it is easier to use than a regular CD player. However, I agree this process needs to be easier, and as time goes by, it will be.

  22. #52

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    I'd love to have that BDP-1 (or 2). If/when my SQB dies, I'll be going in that direction.

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  23. #53

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    I think your missing my point Fox. I didn't mean desk top computers as they are today. That we can agree on, lousy for audio. But, lets say you took the BDP 1 and added internet connectivity to it. Those electronics for computing being in the same chassis but separate. Would that not be something someone would buy ?

  24. #54

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    Quote Originally Posted by tonyb View Post
    I think your missing my point Fox. I didn't mean desk top computers as they are today. That we can agree on, lousy for audio. But, lets say you took the BDP 1 and added internet connectivity to it. Those electronics for computing being in the same chassis but separate. Would that not be something someone would buy ?
    Maybe, but that would be similar to putting internet connections into a CD player. Where that might be useful for a BDP type player is if you could stream lossless audio off the internet. Since you cannot do that at this point in time, adding internet connectivity would be nice, but not a deal breaker. Since the BDP connects to your home network, one benefit of it would be to allow Bryston to update the firmware remotely. Let me ask Bryston, on another forum, if they considered that.

    As a side-note, Nirvana's Nevermind on Pure Audio BR arrived yesterday, hopefully Exile On Main Street ships today, and I can rip both this Friday. I bought an AC powered USB hub so that I can the BR drive into the hub versus the computer.

  25. #55

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    "System Requirement : Windows 98SE/2000/ME/XP/Vista/ Windows 7, not for Mac" <- HAL: "It can only be attributable to human error." 1968

    Fox Says:

    "The Bryston BDP1 and BDP2 are designed solely for accurate digital sound reproduction. They are Linux based computers with a Bryston designed power supply, and a Bryston enhanced high-end sound card (digital out). There are no fans, hard drives, or any other source of noise, and the drive attaches either through USB or NAS (BDP2). Files are read from the drive, stored in RAM, and then read from RAM for extremely low jitter.

    Even better, for the consumer, these devices are designed as a high-end advanced CD transport, but with much lower jitter. This means you just select via the remote a CD to play, and away it goes. Plus, you can select multiple CDs to play, put them in a random order, play random files from multiple CDs, create playlists of music types, create playlists of favorite songs, etc., etc."

    I just ordered 8 GB of RAM + 120 GB SSD for my 2009 MacBook Pro = no fans, hard drives, or any other source of noise, and the MBP attaches via a $15 Nuforce Impulse USB to my TEAC UD-501. I plan on plugging the BDP-51FD into the RCAs on the TEAC, to test against the MBP's drive. My next big task will be storage.

    I agree with tony: "That's way too much headaches for the average person, or not so techy consumer." NOTE: I sometimes regret not accepting a computer specialist internship with the Department of Army Materiel Development & Readiness Command in 1980. But those were the days of FORTRAN & punchcards.


    Regarding Jitter, see:

    http://archimago.blogspot.ca/2013/05...udiophile.html

    Apologies to tonyb. for the myriad of test result graphs. Archimago makes this reply to the topic of "subjectivists." DISCLAIMER: I live next door to a family of evangelists. The LDS Church is 3 blocks from my house.

    "I *try* to avoid arguments with hard-core subjectivist folks. Pointless. I'd probably have better luck with the evangelists that come by my door once awhile. I usually just remind them that I'm after accuracy from the gear; nothing more, nothing less - ALL of that can be measured by instruments more accurate than my ears/brain."

    Still no emoticon for /sarchasm ?

  26. #56

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    Not me, I love to argue.....ok, discuss is more appropriate. Graphs do me almost no good. While certain instruments can measure things down to the last detail, it still gives hardly no indication of how something will sound or how musical a piece will be. Accuracy is all well and good but I'd sacrifice some for musicality if I had to.

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    I just ripped the BR Audio version of Nirvana's Nevermind to the music server. This was a lot smoother since I knew what I was doing this time. I also added an AC powered USB 3.0 (2.0 compatible) hub, and now I can have the original hub with two hard drives, and the BR drive plugged in without getting an over power error.

    I had previously ripped Nevermind from a CD I bought in the 90s, so I am able to do an A/B comparison between the two. First thing I noticed is the high-res files are louder. For comparison I used the pre set at 42 db for the BR, and 47 db for the CD. The BR is definitely clearer, and quieter, than the CD. On the CD, Kurt Cobain sounds like he has marbles in his mouth. With the high-res, you can understand him. Obviously, the music also is more defined and precise.

    I also added Tom Petty's two disk Anthology to the server today, but that is just CD quality.

  28. #58

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    A few years before I heard of blu ray audio, I was begging for blu ray audio. In fact I wrote a brief post here, where I wondered aloud about the likelihood of the format developing music only discs. It made so much sense. Everyone already has a player and the resolution is fantastic. Such an easy integration unlike the other attempts at high resolution digital. And now here we are - "Damn the Torpedoes" arrived yesterday. Ask and you shall receive.

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  29. #59

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    Exile On Main Street arrived a little bit ago. It is currently being extracted to the hard drive, and then ripped to the music server. It will be fun comparing it to the SHM SACD later tonight.

  30. #60

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    I say you run the BR disc threw the player instead of burning it for comparisons. I think the BR audio has some legs to it, more so than the other formats.

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