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  1. #1

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    Default SDA CRS+ Cap upgrade question

    Question for the experts. Looking at upgrading a set of CRS+ crossovers. As you probably know, the dimensional array circuit has 2-130uF caps (making a 260 uF capacitance) for the circuit. Have a tight budget right now and film caps are going to cost about $60 to $70 per speaker (that is the cheapest going with Solen or Daytons). My question is if I was to go with new electrolytic caps on this circuit instead of film, how and what would this affect on the sound? I would still go film on all the other caps and go with high quality film on the tweeter. Since this cap really affects the dimensional array driver, am I really going to hear the affect of this cost cutting move?

    2nd Question... is there much difference between using Dayton non-inductive resistors vs Mills?

  2. #2

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    You should use all film, they do make a difference even for the dimensional driver.

    Do not use Solen or Dayton for the tweeter.

    Mills are cheap enough for any budget.
    'Political Correctness'.........defined

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  3. #3

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    I had the same dilemma when I first got my 2As (Same generation, and same crossover). You can always revisit the crossovers. My 1st upgrade consisted of Sonicaps and Mills for the Hi-Pass, Dayton 5% for the Lo-Pass shunts, and new electrolytics for the two 130uf caps. I knew at some point the electrolytics would be replaced. It took 6-8 months before I hand enough discretionary income to buy six 90uf Daytons, which was the least expensive option. Shortly after I also did a non-sanctioned "TL Mod", which made the 2As outstanding: http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/show...ished...Almost
    As F1 suggests, do the Mills Resistors. The Daytons are Sandcast, and no better than the ones in your crossovers now.
    Last edited by westmassguy; 01-14-2014 at 04:33 AM.
    Home Theater/2 Channel:
    Front: SDA-2ATL http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/show...ished...Almost
    Center: Custom http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/show...hannel-Project
    Surrounds & Rears: Custom http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/show...rround-Project
    Sonicaps, Mills, RDO-194s-198s, Dynamat, H-Nuts, BH5
    Pioneer Elite VSX-72TXV, Carver PM-350, SVS PB2-Plus Subwoofer


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  4. #4
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    I prefer the Mundorf MOX resistors, and film caps are the best, but you always can revisit the crossover when you have more funds as stated above.

    Good luck!

  5. #5

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    My two cents, having done this project:

    http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/show...s-are-complete!

    If you look at the schematics, you'll notice that the two 130uF caps per speaker were dropped in later versions of the CRS+. If I were in your shoes, I would take the money that you'd be spending on those massive caps and put it towards a pair of Tony's boards, two 6511 new-stock drivers, two RD-0198 tweeters, and the correct inductors in order to upgrade your CRS+'s to 4.1TL spec. You've already got the single tweeter cabinet. You'll end up with a much better pair of speakers in the end!
    Good music, a good source, and good power can make SDA's sing. Tubes make them dance.

  6. #6

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    Quote Originally Posted by nspindel View Post
    My two cents, having done this project:

    http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/show...s-are-complete!

    If you look at the schematics, you'll notice that the two 130uF caps per speaker were dropped in later versions of the CRS+. If I were in your shoes, I would take the money that you'd be spending on those massive caps and put it towards a pair of Tony's boards, two 6511 new-stock drivers, two RD-0198 tweeters, and the correct inductors in order to upgrade your CRS+'s to 4.1TL spec. You've already got the single tweeter cabinet. You'll end up with a much better pair of speakers in the end!
    The cabinet volume is different, and the PRs are tuned differently
    Home Theater/2 Channel:
    Front: SDA-2ATL http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/show...ished...Almost
    Center: Custom http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/show...hannel-Project
    Surrounds & Rears: Custom http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/show...rround-Project
    Sonicaps, Mills, RDO-194s-198s, Dynamat, H-Nuts, BH5
    Pioneer Elite VSX-72TXV, Carver PM-350, SVS PB2-Plus Subwoofer


    www.dhsspeakerservice.com

  7. #7

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    Ouch!
    Good music, a good source, and good power can make SDA's sing. Tubes make them dance.

  8. #8

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    If the older cabinets were larger, you could compensate for the cabinet volume with something like Sonic Barrier, correct? Are the PR's the same size and screw hole configuration? I've seen the passives on eBay before. Just wondering how out of the question this mod would be. 260uF per side of decent film caps is a lot of dosh.
    Good music, a good source, and good power can make SDA's sing. Tubes make them dance.

  9. #9

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    By the time you add in 2 PRs, and 2 new or salvaged replacement drivers, plus the boards, plus at least 4 inductors, you're well past what he would spend for the caps
    Home Theater/2 Channel:
    Front: SDA-2ATL http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/show...ished...Almost
    Center: Custom http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/show...hannel-Project
    Surrounds & Rears: Custom http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/show...rround-Project
    Sonicaps, Mills, RDO-194s-198s, Dynamat, H-Nuts, BH5
    Pioneer Elite VSX-72TXV, Carver PM-350, SVS PB2-Plus Subwoofer


    www.dhsspeakerservice.com

  10. #10

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    Depends on the caps. To get that much Sonicap capacitance would be over $700. I suspect that's why the OP is asking about Solens and Daytons. It may cost a bit more to do this than to use cheap caps, but the end result will be so much better I would think.
    Good music, a good source, and good power can make SDA's sing. Tubes make them dance.

  11. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by nspindel View Post
    Depends on the caps. To get that much Sonicap capacitance would be over $700. I suspect that's why the OP is asking about Solens and Daytons. It may cost a bit more to do this than to use cheap caps, but the end result will be so much better I would think.
    So much better? I respectfully disagree. My 2ATLs are easily a match for a similarly equipped pair of 2Bs. And his crossovers are exactly the same as mine. The 260uf (total) shunt caps do not need to be high-end caps like the Hi-Pass, or even the regular Lo-Pass shunt caps. They operate in conjunction with the 5.6mh inductor as part of the "Full Complement Sub-Bass Drive", and only below 150Hz. Daytons or Solens will do just fine in that position.
    Home Theater/2 Channel:
    Front: SDA-2ATL http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/show...ished...Almost
    Center: Custom http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/show...hannel-Project
    Surrounds & Rears: Custom http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/show...rround-Project
    Sonicaps, Mills, RDO-194s-198s, Dynamat, H-Nuts, BH5
    Pioneer Elite VSX-72TXV, Carver PM-350, SVS PB2-Plus Subwoofer


    www.dhsspeakerservice.com

  12. #12

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    Thanks for all the replies. I figured most of you would say to go with films, but I'm doing this for a friend's set who is on a limited budget. Yes we may go electrolytic now and upgrade the large caps later. What no one has addressed is what do I lose with the electrolytic vs. the films. I have heard the difference with the two on the high pass and have even heard the diff between Daytons vs Sonicap vs Clarity etc. What I want to know is what do you get on the low end drivers with the films vs electrolytic (soundwise) and will it still be better with the new electrolytic caps over the original or should I just leave the originals in for now until he can afford films for that part of the speaker.

  13. #13

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    No... we will not be going with Sonicaps on the low pass. $700 for CRS+ set is really not worth that cost. Might as well start looking for SRS speakers.
    :-)

  14. #14

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    Quote Originally Posted by westmassguy View Post
    So much better? I respectfully disagree. My 2ATLs are easily a match for a similarly equipped pair of 2Bs. And his crossovers are exactly the same as mine. The 260uf (total) shunt caps do not need to be high-end caps like the Hi-Pass, or even the regular Lo-Pass shunt caps. They operate in conjunction with the 5.6mh inductor as part of the "Full Complement Sub-Bass Drive", and only below 150Hz. Daytons or Solens will do just fine in that position.
    Fair enough. I've never heard any of the non-sanctioned TL's. I've always used Sonicaps across the board, I'm glad I've never owned a pair that needed 260uF per side!
    Good music, a good source, and good power can make SDA's sing. Tubes make them dance.

  15. #15

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    Quote Originally Posted by bcline View Post
    No... we will not be going with Sonicaps on the low pass. $700 for CRS+ set is really not worth that cost. Might as well start looking for SRS speakers.
    :-)
    Oh trust me, you can spend a lot of cash on a pair of CRS+'s.........
    Good music, a good source, and good power can make SDA's sing. Tubes make them dance.

  16. #16

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    WestMass... I too did a set of 2A speakers about five years ago. There is a thread somewhere on the forum for it. The guys here found a set of Solens with the right capacitance for a really cheap closeout price so I didn't have to wire a bunch up in parallel. I did use hot glue... sorry not professional... but I figured nobody would ever see it. :)
    Last edited by bcline; 01-14-2014 at 09:02 PM. Reason: Time Correction... I'm getting old.

  17. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by nspindel View Post
    Oh trust me, you can spend a lot of cash on a pair of CRS+'s.........
    Yeah you got Duelunds, sweet!
    Home Theater/2 Channel:
    Front: SDA-2ATL http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/show...ished...Almost
    Center: Custom http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/show...hannel-Project
    Surrounds & Rears: Custom http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/show...rround-Project
    Sonicaps, Mills, RDO-194s-198s, Dynamat, H-Nuts, BH5
    Pioneer Elite VSX-72TXV, Carver PM-350, SVS PB2-Plus Subwoofer


    www.dhsspeakerservice.com

  18. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by bcline View Post
    WestMass... I too did a set of 2A speakers about five years ago. There is a thread somewhere on the forum for it. The guys here found a set of Solens with the right capacitance for a really cheap closeout price so I didn't have to wire a bunch up in parallel. I did use hot glue... sorry not professional... but I figured nobody would ever see it. :)
    When I was looking, 2 Solen 130ufs were more expensive than 3 Dayton 90ufs, so went with them
    Home Theater/2 Channel:
    Front: SDA-2ATL http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/show...ished...Almost
    Center: Custom http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/show...hannel-Project
    Surrounds & Rears: Custom http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/show...rround-Project
    Sonicaps, Mills, RDO-194s-198s, Dynamat, H-Nuts, BH5
    Pioneer Elite VSX-72TXV, Carver PM-350, SVS PB2-Plus Subwoofer


    www.dhsspeakerservice.com

  19. #19

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    What I want to know is what do you get on the low end drivers with the films vs electrolytic (soundwise)
    Mo' better bass.
    'Political Correctness'.........defined

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  20. #20

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    Quote Originally Posted by F1nut View Post
    Mo' better bass.
    This^^^^^^^^
    Plus, if you really want to increase the bass, replace the 5.6mh "Full Complement Sub-Bass Drive" or Dimensional Inductor for short. A 14 or 16 gauge Erse SuperQ Inductor will increase the bass output of the dimensional woofer below 150 Hz dramatically. Again, you don't have to do everything at once. Do the "Stereo" half of the crossover (which includes the Hi-Pass Tweeter section) with the best components you can afford. The "Dimensional" half can be reworked easily, once you can afford the film caps and the Inductors. That's more or less how I did my 2ATLs.
    Home Theater/2 Channel:
    Front: SDA-2ATL http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/show...ished...Almost
    Center: Custom http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/show...hannel-Project
    Surrounds & Rears: Custom http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/show...rround-Project
    Sonicaps, Mills, RDO-194s-198s, Dynamat, H-Nuts, BH5
    Pioneer Elite VSX-72TXV, Carver PM-350, SVS PB2-Plus Subwoofer


    www.dhsspeakerservice.com

  21. #21

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    Quote Originally Posted by bcline View Post
    Thanks for all the replies. I figured most of you would say to go with films, but I'm doing this for a friend's set who is on a limited budget. Yes we may go electrolytic now and upgrade the large caps later. What no one has addressed is what do I lose with the electrolytic vs. the films. I have heard the difference with the two on the high pass and have even heard the diff between Daytons vs Sonicap vs Clarity etc. What I want to know is what do you get on the low end drivers with the films vs electrolytic (soundwise) and will it still be better with the new electrolytic caps over the original or should I just leave the originals in for now until he can afford films for that part of the speaker.
    Another thing to consider, is the crossover point, which is below 2K as I recall. The woofers not only supply the low bass, but also cover a good deal of the range of the human voice, so those 20uf shunt caps should be the best you can afford as well.
    Home Theater/2 Channel:
    Front: SDA-2ATL http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/show...ished...Almost
    Center: Custom http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/show...hannel-Project
    Surrounds & Rears: Custom http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/show...rround-Project
    Sonicaps, Mills, RDO-194s-198s, Dynamat, H-Nuts, BH5
    Pioneer Elite VSX-72TXV, Carver PM-350, SVS PB2-Plus Subwoofer


    www.dhsspeakerservice.com

  22. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by westmassguy View Post
    This^^^^^^^^
    Plus, if you really want to increase the bass, replace the 5.6mh "Full Complement Sub-Bass Drive" or Dimensional Inductor for short. A 14 or 16 gauge Erse SuperQ Inductor will increase the bass output of the dimensional woofer below 150 Hz dramatically. Again, you don't have to do everything at once. Do the "Stereo" half of the crossover (which includes the Hi-Pass Tweeter section) with the best components you can afford. The "Dimensional" half can be reworked easily, once you can afford the film caps and the Inductors. That's more or less how I did my 2ATLs.
    So only replace that inductor... (I'm now thinking about my SDA 2As I did back in 2009 which have the same layout)... The other two inductors are OK and do not need replaced? Is that because this is parallel "shunt" wired and the other two are in series? I don't really understand what the inductors functions are in this circuit so I'm just curious to know.

  23. #23

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    Leave the other inductors in place, they're fine. This particular inductor provides a path to ground, below 150hz, for the dimensional woofer to operate in tandem with the stereo woofer. It's a very unique arrangement. If it's not there, it's out of phase with the stereo driver, and reduces bass response. They got around it with the original SDA-2 by adding a sub base driver. They made this inductor with a relatively high resistance, to keep the overall speaker impedance high enough so amplifiers back in the day could handle the load. Replacing it with a very low resistance inductor, increases the low bass output on the dimensional woofer quite a bit. The trade off, is your 4 ohm 2As now drop well below that. If your amp can handle < 4 ohm loads you should be fine. There's a whole section in the SDA Handbook that explains all this.
    Home Theater/2 Channel:
    Front: SDA-2ATL http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/show...ished...Almost
    Center: Custom http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/show...hannel-Project
    Surrounds & Rears: Custom http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/show...rround-Project
    Sonicaps, Mills, RDO-194s-198s, Dynamat, H-Nuts, BH5
    Pioneer Elite VSX-72TXV, Carver PM-350, SVS PB2-Plus Subwoofer


    www.dhsspeakerservice.com

  24. #24

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    I will have to think about that then. I'm still running an Onkyo TX-SR806 AV receiver on the system right now. It handles the 4 ohm speakers just fine without overheating, but I don't know if it will be able to handle 2 - 3 ohms which is what the SDA manual says you will essentially get. Not at a point right now to by new amp either, though it would be wonderful.

  25. #25

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    I'm surprised it's handling them now. Seem like a good AVR, but they run out of steam very quickly since all channels share the same power supply.
    Home Theater/2 Channel:
    Front: SDA-2ATL http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/show...ished...Almost
    Center: Custom http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/show...hannel-Project
    Surrounds & Rears: Custom http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/show...rround-Project
    Sonicaps, Mills, RDO-194s-198s, Dynamat, H-Nuts, BH5
    Pioneer Elite VSX-72TXV, Carver PM-350, SVS PB2-Plus Subwoofer


    www.dhsspeakerservice.com

  26. #26

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    That particular receiver and the 805 were both given pretty high marks for current and true power ratings. So, they are good at handling them. Usually for music, I'm just in stereo mode so it is just powering the two SDA 2As. In surround mode, watching movies.. it doesn't seem to falter at all, but I usually don't crank up the movies as much as the stereo music. Eventually, I will move up to a high end system, but I'm not altogether unhappy now.
    Last edited by bcline; 01-17-2014 at 11:39 PM.

  27. #27

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    Quote Originally Posted by bcline View Post
    That particular receiver and the 805 were both given pretty high marks for current and true power ratings. So, they are good at handling them. Usually for music, I'm just in stereo mode so it is just powering the two SDA 2As. In surround mode, watching movies.. it doesn't seem to falter at all, but I usually don't crank up the movies as much as the stereo music. Eventually, I will move up to a high end system, but I'm not altogether unhappy now.
    That Receiver has pre-amp outputs, all you'll need is an additional power amp for the 2As. Your center and surrounds can still run off the Receiver. That's how mine is setup.
    Home Theater/2 Channel:
    Front: SDA-2ATL http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/show...ished...Almost
    Center: Custom http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/show...hannel-Project
    Surrounds & Rears: Custom http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/show...rround-Project
    Sonicaps, Mills, RDO-194s-198s, Dynamat, H-Nuts, BH5
    Pioneer Elite VSX-72TXV, Carver PM-350, SVS PB2-Plus Subwoofer


    www.dhsspeakerservice.com

  28. #28

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    I didn't realize this. I will have to start looking for a good amp to stick on it. Always up for suggestions. :) Thanks.

  29. #29

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    Quote Originally Posted by bcline View Post
    I didn't realize this. I will have to start looking for a good amp to stick on it. Always up for suggestions. :) Thanks.
    Used Adcoms are popular, Carvers too. I use a Carver PM-350 Pro amp, which some find objectionable, however it's quiet, has a nice clean sound, and more power than I'll ever need for my 2ATLs, 450 watts/channel @ 4 or 2 ohms. Any amp you do consider, must be common ground, or it won't work with your 3rd generation CRS+.
    Home Theater/2 Channel:
    Front: SDA-2ATL http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/show...ished...Almost
    Center: Custom http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/show...hannel-Project
    Surrounds & Rears: Custom http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/show...rround-Project
    Sonicaps, Mills, RDO-194s-198s, Dynamat, H-Nuts, BH5
    Pioneer Elite VSX-72TXV, Carver PM-350, SVS PB2-Plus Subwoofer


    www.dhsspeakerservice.com

  30. #30

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    The cabinets are the same size, and yes the PR's have a different part number, but you would never know the difference between the two if I didn't tell you..
    No Way But The Hard Way, So Get Used To It!!!

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