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Thread: Dsd?

  1. #1

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    Default Dsd?

    http://www.ultrahighendreview.com/ds...speak-by-sony/ I just thought this was interesting and thought I would share it with you all.

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    Same issue HD Tracks has; Are the high-res files just upsampled CDs? We are in a transition period going from low res CDs, MP3s, and other formats, to high-res sources. Until the fluff is flushed out of the system there will be this incidents, but the future has great potential.

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    My current favorite is the release of albums with digital download capability. Puts the music where I want it. On my turntable and in my iPod for the car with little effort by me.

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    Just a FYI, if you opt for the free Korg Audiogate conversion software, you need to have or get a Tweeter account. Every time you convert something, it tweets it on your account.

    Upsampling takes advantage of different filters in the DAC. To me, there is no absolute as to whether an upsampled recording will sound better or not. Too many variables, including recording quality and gear used. For instance, if your DAC does native DSD it sounds better than dithering down DSD to PCM.
    Last edited by SCompRacer; 01-21-2014 at 11:45 AM.
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    This is the only hirez I've bought so far:

    Bela Fleck & Vishwa Mohan Bhatt - Tabula Rasa

    http://store.acousticsounds.com/d/94...a-DSD_Download

    "Recorded straight to 1-inch analog tape on a custom-built, all-triode tube recording chain. Mastered direct to DSD on a Sonoma system by Chris Rice and authored by Gus Skinas." I appreciate Mr. Kassum's openness.

    I could have gotten the SACD direct from Water Lily ($35?), rather than from Acoustic Sounds for $24.98 + tax.

    Chad is well regarded by the Sisters who run Sisters of Sound here in Aggieville. Anyone running an LP shop these days needs all the help they can get.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueFox View Post
    Until the fluff is flushed out of the system there will be this incidents, but the future has great potential.
    I'm going to call your bluff here. 95% of the people downloading will just think it's better without know any different....think Mp3 most still think they are better than CD....If the music thinks it could get one over on us they ARE going to try and lie their butts off till proven wrong.

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    I got a copy of audiogon / Chesky wkae up your ears high res flac. I will say the sound quality is outstanding on that but, it was recorded / mastered in high rez to begin with where a lot of older stuff isnt. It is all how it's mastered.

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    Quote Originally Posted by erniejade View Post
    It is all how it's mastered.
    I'm thinking we'll always be at the mercy of the mastering regardless of format.

    I finally got that Lorna Hunt / All In One Day CD. Great stuff. Thanks for the recommendation!
    Last edited by SCompRacer; 01-21-2014 at 02:02 PM.
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    COOL!!!!!! I like that cd a lot. The joplin remake i thought was good. Again it reminds me of Cowboy Junkies and the recording / bass on it I thought was solid!

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    Quote Originally Posted by pitdogg2 View Post
    I'm going to call your bluff here. 95% of the people downloading will just think it's better without know any different....think Mp3 most still think they are better than CD....If the music thinks it could get one over on us they ARE going to try and lie their butts off till proven wrong.
    Let me play devil advocate on this, It has been published http://www.computeraudiophile.com/bl...experiment-94/ that until you get down to Itunes format (ACC) are the differences truly noticable, unless you have a trained ear and gear to expose the small short comings of Mp3 at 320kps, flac and Wav. I have done a blind at home test of CD vs Wav and Mp3 and to be honest on a good Original Analog master to start with very hard to tell. Now if your running 2k CDP along with 5k level pre's/amps and speakers/interconnect/cabling in the same price range, then its more of what you want to hear and say is better. SACD is a game changer and again it all starts with a good master.
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    "SACD is a game changer and again it all starts with a good master" I agree and disagree. I have another post on this somewhere as well.

    My rig. McIntosh MC402 amp, Audio research SP16 preamp, Legacy focus speakers, I had a jolida cd player, got into sacd and replaced it with several different players. Sacd always sounded better then the redbook using the internal dac on the cd player.
    I bought a W4s Dac2 and that was the game changer for me. Now redbook played via the w4s dac2 sounds better then sacd played via the sacd player! If played on the same player using the players dac, the sacd sounds better but, soon as I add the w4s in the mix, even on the same cdp, ( coax out to the w4s, rca to the reamp) the redbook wins hands down. This started me down a long $$$ journey that I am not done with just yet.

    For now I have settled on a Cayin scd50T but, im not done. The w4s still edges it out. Right now i am going between some early 60's mullard or blackburn 6922's and some siemans gold pins. Not sure what one i like better but, redbook still sounds better.

    Back to the point, while i agree sacd is a game changer, thats if your not using an outboard dac that is making your redbook sound better then sacd!!!! I know this is not the case with everyone but, its about to the point where I am going to give up trying to make sacd sound as good as redbook via the w4s. If only the players would let the dsd part come through the coax or via hdmi or something, that would resolve my issues. Or just go for dsd downloads....... It bugs me spending $ for the same piece of music 3,4 5x to try to make it sound better.

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    I'm waiting on the high-rez upgrade for my ears.
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    Quote Originally Posted by dkg999 View Post
    I'm waiting on the high-rez upgrade for my ears.
    LOL that will cost a bit more.

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    The key to best sounding DSD is going native, not dithering it down to PCM and sending it to DAC. Most DAC chips can do native DSD, it's the getting native to the DAC chip that's missing. If you can DIY, no problem.
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    Quote Originally Posted by SCompRacer View Post
    The key to best sounding DSD is going native, not dithering it down to PCM and sending it to DAC. Most DAC chips can do native DSD, it's the getting native to the DAC chip that's missing. If you can DIY, no problem.
    It surprised me when I figured out for myself how true this is. I downloaded some DSD samples from the various online purveyors and was generally impressed with how good they sounded, but for a while I just chalked it up to them being extremely well mastered examples that were being showcased to get customers believing in the format.

    Then I downloaded a trial copy of JRiver and converted a sampling of stuff from my own library, both redbook CDs ripped to WAV or FLAC and some hi-rez FLAC stuff from HD Tracks to DSD. From the same laptop source, and starting with the exact same material, sending DSD to the DAC sounds noticeably better than sending the same PCM. I made my wife sit through an AB session and she could easily identify when the source was DSD vs PCM. This actually bummed me out a little bit because I don't normally use my laptop as the source to my DAC, and the little Linux media server I do use doesn't have ASIO DSD drivers. Gonna have to figure out a new media server solution I guess.

    But back to the OP's point... even if sending bit transparent DSD to a capable DAC sounds better, there's no reason at all to pay for it(since you can do that conversion yourself) unless you know where the masters came from. It seems kinda crazy to me to treat an earlier transfer to PCM as a "master", but then there are people on Amazon selling CDs of music ripped straight from dusty vinyl, so I guess "caveat emptor" is the rule of the day with digital audio.

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    Looks like I will dumping Mediamonkey to try JRiver. What kind of connection are you using to get the dsd to the dac? Usb or I2S? Rich is using I2S but are there other ways. I have a Amanero usb that will do I2S so I will try that first. The least amount of conversions the music has to go though the better it will sound. I am really liking the sound I have now so dsd will only be better. Just have to get the Amanero and Jriver up and running. Have you seen this from the TPA guys? Looks like the new way to stream.
    http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/twist...tter-pear.html
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    Quote Originally Posted by bikerboy View Post
    Looks like I will dumping Mediamonkey to try JRiver. What kind of connection are you using to get the dsd to the dac? Usb or I2S? Rich is using I2S but are there other ways. I have a Amanero usb that will do I2S so I will try that first. The least amount of conversions the music has to go though the better it will sound. I am really liking the sound I have now so dsd will only be better. Just have to get the Amanero and Jriver up and running. Have you seen this from the TPA guys? Looks like the new way to stream.
    http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/twist...tter-pear.html
    I tried and bought JRiver. Nice software, easy to configure.

    Been following the TP thread. I think fruition is likely with this project versus the long awaited USB-I2S module. Got a guy that is interested in a Bluetooth BIII/BIIISE DAC.
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    I thought Jriver does dsd direct via USB?

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    Here is some more reading & samples.

    http://oppodigital.com/hra/dsd-by-davidelias.aspx

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    I didn't realise the oppo could throw out native dsd via hdmi from sacd. I wonder if my w4s would work with it. If so, might be time to get a new unit.
    Thanks for posting that link! Nice samples also.

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    JRiver does DSD as a direct stream or DoP (DSD over PCM) over USB. I'm sure there are other options as well if you've got the right drivers. I'm pretty happy with the latest version of it, and the DSD conversion is a total no-brainer. I've got a Benchmark DAC2, so no HDMI input, and it just does a 1x DSD over PCM. Benchmark supplies the asynchronous USB 2.0 driver that JRiver recognizes and uses to output the signal. I've also got an Oppo that will send DSD over HDMI, and I've played with letting my Pioneer SC-25 decode the DSD. In the category of totally random, useless information: Letting the PIO decode the DSD stream doesn't sound as good letting the Oppo decode it and send PCM to the PIO or just send analog signal (I can't hear much of a difference between those on my Polk Monitor HT speakers).

    I thought the Benchmark with a decent amp and SDA 2Bs sounded good with PCM over USB or SPDIF, but DSD over USB really is noticeably better in that case, to the point where I think I'll pop an SSD in an older laptop and see if I can press it into service as a music server. Since I'm starting from PCM source material and converting to DSD and it STILL sounds better, I'm wondering if maybe it's a jitter thing and the Benchmark is just better at reclocking from a DSD signal.

    I don't doubt that I2S and a roll-your-own DAC could be even better, but that's aspirational at this point for me. It's just always nice to hear something you didn't know your equipment could do and realize you're not done yet.

  22. #22

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    The JRiver DSD wiki page.

    http://wiki.jriver.com/index.php/DSD_Format

    If you go diy with a DAC, check out Twisted Pear offerings. Pricey, but IMO one of the best diy implementations of the ESS Sabre DAC. They offer two DAC board choices, two output board choices, linear or shunting power supplies, multiple inputs. They have a support forum and are also at diyaudio under manufacturers.

    http://www.twistedpearaudio.com/landing.aspx

    http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/twisted-pear/
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