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  1. #1

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    Default High Efficiency Tower upgrade for my Monitor 70

    I am running a 2.1 stereo system using a Yahama RX-797 100 wpc receiver hooked to two M70 plus a 12 inch Velodyne sub. The system sounds good, with big soundstage and tight base, but can be harsh in the mid-range. I would like to upgrade the towers. Everything I like requires substantial upgrades in the amp. Are there better towers than the polk monitors that will produce volume plus quality sound from a 100 wpc receiver?

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    Upgrade the power and even those m70's will sound better.
    Usher CP-6311, Shuguang S200MK, Shuguang S845MK, Pioneer BDP-51fd, Essence Audio HDACC, Douglas IC's, Douglas Alpha bi-wire SC's, Pangea/Douglas PC's, Epson 8100

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    +1. Your receiver has Pre-outs so the first thing you can do is get a USED power amp of 200 watts x 2 and slap it on the M-70s. Later you can upgrade from the receiver to a separate Pre-amp that will also bring gains in sound.

    But frankly I'm a little surprised because I've never heard anyone describe M-70s as having "harsh mids". They can sound harsh like most speakers with a less than stellar digital source and cheap DACs.

    So another question here is WHAT are you using as your music source?

    cnh
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    I understand. If I upgrade the power, I have endless possibilities. There must be a tower that will sound good with my current setup. I am considering TSX, but not sure they would be a big upgrade. Klipsch Rf62 is another possibility, but I have not heard them.

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    Onkyo sacd

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    What model Onkyo SACD? Need to look at specs and DAC complement. Onkyo Wolfsons can be a little harsh IMO.

    Polk Rti-A5s are probably somewhat more efficient than M-70s, I believe. More of a sideways move.

    Klipsch are horn loaded speakers that can be VERY HARSH up high! Not everyone experiences them this way, though.

    cnh
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    What reservations do you have about upgrading the power?
    Usher CP-6311, Shuguang S200MK, Shuguang S845MK, Pioneer BDP-51fd, Essence Audio HDACC, Douglas IC's, Douglas Alpha bi-wire SC's, Pangea/Douglas PC's, Epson 8100

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    Quote Originally Posted by DSkip View Post
    What reservations do you have about upgrading the power?
    My question too, I'm willing to bet if he fed those M70s with say a Parasound of HCA-1200II/HCA1500 lineage, they'd sound perfect.
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    The Onkyo is a C-S5CL. The M70s with the sub at times sound very good to me, sometimes not. I Have TSI500 upstairs as part of a 5.1 system, and they seem good, maybe a little warmer. I really did not want to add an amp at this point, just upgrade my 2 channel speakers if possible to do so without reinventing the whole system. I heard some B&W683 at BB that sounded great. The guy told me he was pushing them with a 90 wpc Pioneer. I have since read that they are very power hungry speakers, making me wonder if he was pushing them with more than 90 wpc.

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    How do you guys feel about Emotiva?

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    That's a decent player by Onkyo in that price range. Probably OK there. B&W speakers "hurt" my ears so we must be hearing something different.

    So you're saying the M-70s sound OK sometimes? Could it just be whatever the music format is or a badly mastered CD. Because that does happen?

    cnh
    Onkyo TX-SR 805 System #1 HT AVR
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    Adding an amp is less of a "reinvention" than adding new speakers. I had a Yamaha RX-V563 that probably carried the same amp technology that 797 does. Trust me when I say those amps built into that era of Yamaha's do nothing to make ANY speaker sound good.

    You can definitely look at speakers - perhaps some Monitor 50's would sound better with your setup. I still personally feel you're barking up the wrong tree.
    Usher CP-6311, Shuguang S200MK, Shuguang S845MK, Pioneer BDP-51fd, Essence Audio HDACC, Douglas IC's, Douglas Alpha bi-wire SC's, Pangea/Douglas PC's, Epson 8100

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    Quote Originally Posted by cnh View Post
    So you're saying the M-70s sound OK sometimes? Could it just be whatever the music format is or a badly mastered CD. cnh
    +1 here. Don't be so quick to blame the speakers. The problem could be coming from a number of places. The midrange is supposed to be the strong point of those Monitors. When I had mine the upper registers of the tweeter were what was really harsh at high volumes.

    Not a fan of B&W speakers either. Can't stand that kevlar woofer. Sounds to much like... well... kevlar.
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    Thanks everyone. Noww you have me thinking about an amp. BTW, my wife is agreeing with all of you, which makes life a lot easier for me. Which leads me back to Emotiva XPA-2 with 300w x 2. Opinions?

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    If new is your only option, Emotiva is hard to beat. If you're open to used, give us a budget to work with and I'm sure the guys here can throw several options at you. I will warn you though - if you add an amp, the floodgates might open and you could end up a lot deeper in this hobby than you intended. Many that have owned the M70's say that adding a quality amp transformed the M70 into a new speaker.

    Cnh also makes valid points and you should consider that first if you're hesitant to spend the money on an amp. Trial/error is free. What CD's were giving you hell?
    Usher CP-6311, Shuguang S200MK, Shuguang S845MK, Pioneer BDP-51fd, Essence Audio HDACC, Douglas IC's, Douglas Alpha bi-wire SC's, Pangea/Douglas PC's, Epson 8100

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    Also look into a warmer sounding cable like Kimber cable, that generic cable you get for 20 bucks can sound harsh on the highs too.

    One thing you'll learn, is that everything in the chain plays a role in the final sound you hear, not just the speakers.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DSkip View Post
    If new is your only option, Emotiva is hard to beat. If you're open to used, give us a budget to work with and I'm sure the guys here can throw several options at you. I will warn you though - if you add an amp, the floodgates might open and you could end up a lot deeper in this hobby than you intended. Many that have owned the M70's say that adding a quality amp transformed the M70 into a new speaker.

    Cnh also makes valid points and you should consider that first if you're hesitant to spend the money on an amp. Trial/error is free. What CD's were giving you hell?
    Been there, done that, big beefy amp turned good sounding RTiA7s into extremely nice sounding RTiA7s, like I bought new speakers, but didn't. jerseybowler, it's amazing what some power and current can do to a big pair of speakers as I speak from experience.
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  18. #18

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    I know my CDs have a wide range of recording and playback quality. My hang up is that I have reservations on how good the M70 could be. After all, it is a sub $200 speaker. As I said before, when it sounds good, it sounds good. How much more is left. You are correct in implying that onceI buy the amp, the flood gate opens. there are a lot of speakers I have on my consideration list. That I know I can't drive with my current set-up. Some of them are being offered at incredible prices.

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    You can't drive anything with the current receiver. The 70's are only sub $200 4-5 after release thru newegg or polk direct. They were much more originally MSRP. THey can be very nice IF given some power. You will be wasting money buying new speakers with the current AVR. What do you have driving the 500's in the other system? Have you tried the 70s on that? If you just want loud, buy some Cerwin Vega's. If you want to lose some harshness then turn the volumne down and buy sold older vintage speakers where the highs were already rolled off and haven't gotten any better after 30 years....

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    As for amp $$$, I wouldn't buy an amp that costs more than my speakers. If you want to buy a used amp, there's a lot of older NAD/Rotel integrated out there that perform very admirably if you want to keep it very simple.

    However it sounds like you don't like what you hearing and you're hearing the speakers. So odds are it's the speakers you don'tl ike as much. Best advice is to go out there, listen to some speakers, and most higher end audio shops let you bring in your own amp to audition with.
    2Ch Tube Audio Convert

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    You need to replace the weakest link in the chain. You receiver is the weak link, not the speakers. Buy a nice clean used Adcom or Parasound amp for less than new speakers or a new receiver would cost and you will be amazed at the sound.

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    Quote Originally Posted by aboroth00 View Post
    As for amp $$$, I wouldn't buy an amp that costs more than my speakers. If you want to buy a used amp, there's a lot of older NAD/Rotel integrated out there that perform very admirably if you want to keep it very simple.

    However it sounds like you don't like what you hearing and you're hearing the speakers. So odds are it's the speakers you don'tl ike as much. Best advice is to go out there, listen to some speakers, and most higher end audio shops let you bring in your own amp to audition with.
    This is something I don't subscribe to. I've got 3 times the money in my monoblocks that I have in my speakers. Monetary value shouldn't be the only deciding factor there - the quality of the speaker and the "weakest link" should be. While speakers give you a general idea of their sound on any speaker, you know as well as I do that some power amps make them sound anemic, whilst others open them up and really show what the design is capable of.

    Are there better speakers than the M70? Hell yes. But if you aren't even tapping out their potential, what is the purpose to get another speaker that will have the same issue in your rig?


    Starting in the hobby can really make those values you place on each object differ too. I only start to feel the % here vs. % there mentality when you have a solid baseline to work with. If you don't have that baseline, you upgrade what you can when you can as efficiently as you can until that component is solid. M70's are solid speakers...
    Usher CP-6311, Shuguang S200MK, Shuguang S845MK, Pioneer BDP-51fd, Essence Audio HDACC, Douglas IC's, Douglas Alpha bi-wire SC's, Pangea/Douglas PC's, Epson 8100

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    Quote Originally Posted by jerseybowler View Post
    Thanks everyone. Noww you have me thinking about an amp. BTW, my wife is agreeing with all of you, which makes life a lot easier for me. Which leads me back to Emotiva XPA-2 with 300w x 2. Opinions?
    Awesome match!!! I had M70's powered with an XPA-3, music was better than when just off the AVR.

    I had upgraded my speakers to A9's and got the XPA-2 for them.

    When it came time to sell my Monitor speakers, I demoed the M70's on the XPA-2 and heard them for the first time with that much power behind them. As I cranked the volume during some 2ch demos, I was quite impressed with what I heard, bass felt through the floor, very rich and deep, more detail than I'd heard before.

    I got my asking price easy and to tell you the truth, I actually became a little hesitant on the sell.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DSkip View Post
    This is something I don't subscribe to. I've got 3 times the money in my monoblocks that I have in my speakers. Monetary value shouldn't be the only deciding factor there - the quality of the speaker and the "weakest link" should be. While speakers give you a general idea of their sound on any speaker, you know as well as I do that some power amps make them sound anemic, whilst others open them up and really show what the design is capable of.

    Are there better speakers than the M70? Hell yes. But if you aren't even tapping out their potential, what is the purpose to get another speaker that will have the same issue in your rig?


    Starting in the hobby can really make those values you place on each object differ too. I only start to feel the % here vs. % there mentality when you have a solid baseline to work with. If you don't have that baseline, you upgrade what you can when you can as efficiently as you can until that component is solid. M70's are solid speakers...
    IMO, sound comes from the speakers and most of the sound you hear will be a result of what the speakers are capable of. Bang for your buck in upgrading is going for better speakers, not better amps. A well designed amp will be capable of driving most efficient designs such as Polks. At ~85db/1watt up+ with no awkward impedance dips/phase angles, a capable amp will be able to drive the speaker to realize its potential. An amp change is much more negligible than a speaker change and IMO that's where the money should be going, especially in the price ranges he's looking at.

    OTOH, if you found a speaker you really like and more expensive speakers will not satiate your appetite then sure, go ahead and spend more money on the gear around the speaker. But in his predicament, I would wholeheartedly endorse getting new speakers if he's not satisfied with what he has.
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  25. #25

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    Yes, sound comes from the speaker and yes, they are the biggest component of the system. But with that logic, would you not consistently just upgrade the speakers to get better sound? The M70's have a strong reputation around here for needing more than what a receiver, stereo or surround, usually provides. A $300 investment opens those speakers up to show their potential AND provides a solid baseline for any speakers that follow. Otherwise, you'll never be happy with ANY speaker. That also puts the amp in the same bracket as the speakers, which were what, $800-$1k when new? I really think you discount the M70 too much (this coming from a guy who doesn't care much for the Monitor line).
    Usher CP-6311, Shuguang S200MK, Shuguang S845MK, Pioneer BDP-51fd, Essence Audio HDACC, Douglas IC's, Douglas Alpha bi-wire SC's, Pangea/Douglas PC's, Epson 8100

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    Agree with Skip here. While you may find speakers you like you'll never be hearing their full capabilities without a quality amplifier. Don't put cheap gas and 70,000mile tires on a Ferrari right?
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    +1 on adding an amp to the monitor 70's first. Probably cheaper too, if you buy used. I had a similar experience with the Monitor 70's before upgrading to rti's. The Monitors can sound really nice, mess with placement and add a power amp. IME with the 70's they did not like to be aimed at the listener much at all, as it would really muddy up the top end ( in my room anyways). I think I ended up turning them in a half in. or less.

    I wouldn't discount their capabilities based what they cost, as it was mentioned they were much more expensive when they first came out. I am sure better speakers will undoubtedly sound better than the 70's, but the 70's will also sound better with a good amplifier. Furthermore, if you still not satisfied with the 70's after the addition of the amp, they are not hard to sell, given their low cost. Then at least you have an amp in place to listen to whatever is next, to its potential.

    And +1 to better cables too.
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    I agree. M-70s used to sell, at the now defunct CC, for 399 each when they were first available with the occasional sale price of 299 which was considered a decent buy (2 for 599). After they went out of production the prices started to fall through the floor. First they dropped to about 399 a pair, then they were regularly available at newegg for 359 o less a pair. And now you can even find them for less.

    Having GOOD amplification as well as a GOOD source, GOOD cables, etc. are ALL important in getting the best from what you have and are also, as Dskip, points out, a GREAT investment for future upgrades. You have NOTHING to lose in doing this!

    cnh
    Onkyo TX-SR 805 System #1 HT AVR
    Office Two Channel: LSi-7s (Nakamichi CA-5, NAD 214, Pioneer BDP51fd)
    Vintage Polks: Polk Monitor 5As, Monitor 7Bs [HK 730], Monitor 10As [Marantz 2265], SDA-2Bs [Jolida JD-303, Jolida MV-MK4]
    Headphones: HD600, Q701, ATH-M50s etc. Bravo Audio Ocean amp., Onkyo P-304, Adcom GFA-555, Technics Direct Drive TT

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    Quote Originally Posted by DSkip View Post
    Yes, sound comes from the speaker and yes, they are the biggest component of the system. But with that logic, would you not consistently just upgrade the speakers to get better sound? The M70's have a strong reputation around here for needing more than what a receiver, stereo or surround, usually provides. A $300 investment opens those speakers up to show their potential AND provides a solid baseline for any speakers that follow. Otherwise, you'll never be happy with ANY speaker. That also puts the amp in the same bracket as the speakers, which were what, $800-$1k when new? I really think you discount the M70 too much (this coming from a guy who doesn't care much for the Monitor line).
    As I said, logically if you found a speaker you really like and more expensive speakers will not be a cost effective option to satiate your needs then spending on an amp is logical. Otherwise, the money is always better spent on a newer speaker. If I were to weigh getting a speaker from a line up or a better amp than my amp which can adequately drive the speakers, I'd pick the speaker from the line up every time.

    Perhaps my experience is different but amps have always made fractional improvements vs. a speaker upgrade. Most speaker designs are efficient and sensitive without awkward impedance curves. It's not like we're using tube amps, we're talking about stout solid state.

    For example if he wants to invest in a XPA-2, he can invest 500-600$ into speakers and get into the territory of Dynaudio Audience, Revel Performa, Focal Chorus which is LEAPS and BOUNDS above Polk Monitors with any kind of amplification.
    2Ch Tube Audio Convert

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    Our experiences likely do vary. If you knew how bad those lower level, older yamahas sounded, you might understand my position more. Calling those amp sections atrocious could be viewed as a compliment.
    Usher CP-6311, Shuguang S200MK, Shuguang S845MK, Pioneer BDP-51fd, Essence Audio HDACC, Douglas IC's, Douglas Alpha bi-wire SC's, Pangea/Douglas PC's, Epson 8100

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