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  1. #31

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    Quote Originally Posted by DSkip View Post
    Our experiences likely do vary. If you knew how bad those lower level, older yamahas sounded, you might understand my position more. Calling those amp sections atrocious could be viewed as a compliment.
    Perhaps ;).

    Considering what you can get on the used market these days, there's no shortage of decent amps out there. I got my NAD C352 for 150$ which will drive any speaker I have. Dan sold me a Rotel RX1050 which drove all my speakers as well admirably for ~200$. So as a point of comparison, do I think my Revel Ultima's sound much much better than my old Performa M22's on good amps, you bet!
    2Ch Tube Audio Convert

  2. #32

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    Quote Originally Posted by aboroth00 View Post
    Perhaps my experience is different but amps have always made fractional improvements vs. a speaker upgrade. Most speaker designs are efficient and sensitive without awkward impedance curves. It's not like we're using tube amps, we're talking about stout solid state.
    So far, my experience with Polk speakers is with the Monitor line starting with the M70's and below, and the RTiA line, A9's and below. I have achieved notable sonic changes in both series by adding power, and it was the amount of power that was crucial to make that point. For the M70, 200w did the trick over 135wpc, 300w brought new detail. For the A9, 200w was not enough to smear the sharp highs, 300w smoothed it right out, cymbal hits became more deliberate instead of a lingering fuzz, saxophone's lost the high shrill sound it once had and was now easy to listen to, it gained more warmth. Sonic changes just by adding the right amount to power.

    Quote Originally Posted by aboroth00 View Post
    For example if he wants to invest in a XPA-2, he can invest 500-600$ into speakers and get into the territory of Dynaudio Audience, Revel Performa, Focal Chorus which is LEAPS and BOUNDS above Polk Monitors with any kind of amplification.
    Actually, a guy can acquire an XPA-2, used with transferable warranty for 5 to 550 and transform the M70 to a level you didn't think possible.
    Draggn' knee is exhilarating, 150mph wheel standers are pretty cool too


    Home Theater-7.2
    Display-SamsungPN64D8000 | Receiver-Onkyo TX-NR807 | Source-OPPOBDP-103 | Amplifiers-Emotiva; XPA-2 x2, XPA-3 | Speakers: PolkAudio; mains-RTiA9, rears-RTiA9, center-CSiA6, surrounds-FXiA6 | Sub-Epik Empire x 2 | Interconnects-Emotiva


    Cans
    Grado RS2i

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    First purchase will be; a pair of ? but I'd love a pair of SDA SRS

  3. #33

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    Quote Originally Posted by Geoff4rfc View Post
    So far, my experience with Polk speakers is with the Monitor line starting with the M70's and below, and the RTiA line, A9's and below. I have achieved notable sonic changes in both series by adding power, and it was the amount of power that was crucial to make that point. For the M70, 200w did the trick over 135wpc, 300w brought new detail. For the A9, 200w was not enough to smear the sharp highs, 300w smoothed it right out, cymbal hits became more deliberate instead of a lingering fuzz, saxophone's lost the high shrill sound it once had and was now easy to listen to, it gained more warmth. Sonic changes just by adding the right amount to power.



    Actually, a guy can acquire an XPA-2, used with transferable warranty for 5 to 550 and transform the M70 to a level you didn't think possible.
    As I said 500-600$ investment. As for more power is better, ABSOLUTELY NOT TRUE. Usually an amp with more wattage is better made and the improvements happen there. As for wattage, this game has been played over and over over the last couple decades of trying to get more wattage and to get people to pay more. It was 50 watts is not enough 10 years ago, 100 watts not enough, now 200 watts is not enough?

    Most of your listening happens at less than 1 watt. What you don't want to happen is that on dynamic passages the amp to compress the dynamics and clip the amp. Otherwise the extra wattage is for moot. Any guy with tube amps, high bias class A amps, pure class A amps would know that it's not the quantity, it's the quality.
    2Ch Tube Audio Convert

  4. #34

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    Quote Originally Posted by aboroth00 View Post
    As I said 500-600$ investment. As for more power is better, ABSOLUTELY NOT TRUE. Usually an amp with more wattage is better made and the improvements happen there. As for wattage, this game has been played over and over over the last couple decades of trying to get more wattage and to get people to pay more. It was 50 watts is not enough 10 years ago, 100 watts not enough, now 200 watts is not enough?
    Our experiences vary as well however, the Monitor and RTi/A series do have their own personality, and through experience, their personality can change to a degree. As my Monitors are now long gone, you are welcome to come over to see for yourself how the RTiA9 can change it's personality by going from 200w to 300.
    Draggn' knee is exhilarating, 150mph wheel standers are pretty cool too


    Home Theater-7.2
    Display-SamsungPN64D8000 | Receiver-Onkyo TX-NR807 | Source-OPPOBDP-103 | Amplifiers-Emotiva; XPA-2 x2, XPA-3 | Speakers: PolkAudio; mains-RTiA9, rears-RTiA9, center-CSiA6, surrounds-FXiA6 | Sub-Epik Empire x 2 | Interconnects-Emotiva


    Cans
    Grado RS2i

    2 Ch Rig
    First purchase will be; a pair of ? but I'd love a pair of SDA SRS

  5. #35

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    To the OP, my intention was not to trash your current receiver. Its fine and dandy and can do well enough with certain speakers, but there will always be something missing with any speaker you pair with it. I miss my 563 at times and still lust a bit for a 663.... it was the receiver I should've bought at the time. Adding an amp will definitely open your eyes.
    Usher CP-6311, Shuguang S200MK, Shuguang S845MK, Pioneer BDP-51fd, Essence Audio HDACC, Douglas IC's, Douglas Alpha bi-wire SC's, Pangea/Douglas PC's, Epson 8100

  6. #36

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    Quote Originally Posted by Geoff4rfc View Post
    Our experiences vary as well however, the Monitor and RTi/A series do have their own personality, and through experience, their personality can change to a degree. As my Monitors are now long gone, you are welcome to come over to see for yourself how the RTiA9 can change it's personality by going from 200w to 300.
    If you're comparing the XPA-2 to the XPA-3 then you're comparing a 2ch amp to a 3ch amp which isn't necessarily a fair comparison. The amount of wattage does not dictate the quality of an amp, period. A higher wattage amp might mean the amp is better built as is the XPA-2 is better built than the XPA-3.
    2Ch Tube Audio Convert

  7. #37

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    I am not sure I agree that the Yamaha amp is that bad. It will push ..the M70 to a pretty high crisp level, before it starts to distort. My Pioneer Elite will not push the TSI 500 to as good or strong a sound. Maybe the Pioneer is a warmer amp, it just doesn't have the pop that the Yahama/ M70 has? if I can find a good used amp, at a reasonable price, I will likely go for it. I have a call into the local audio store. I will also consider new Emotiva and Rotel. This all started because I wanted a pair of RTI 7 orRTI 9 , and I also found some energy veritas, all of which I knew I could not push with my current amp.

  8. #38

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    You mean Rti-A7s, A9s, right. Sure those will be a step up from your M-70s but you're going to need some more power there as well.

    Personally, I think the Energy Veritas series has a nice sound, and I do believe that your current amp could probably drive a pair of their mid-towers reasonably well. So that might also be a thought. Will they sound better with more power, probably.

    Some points made above are matters of debate. Certainly "quality" is important, but so are power reserves (storage capacitance) and dynamic response, damping, high current design, etc. In other words, compare a 1 or 10 watt load from an entry level AVR with, let's say the same load from a 250 watt x 2 Parasound amp and tell me that the Parasound is not cleaner, has deeper tighter bass, more refined mids and a lot more detail and spatial cues up top. Compare a lower wattage 60 x 2 watt Parasound to the 250 watt x 2 and you'll hear still hear the "difference" at the same wattage.

    As for tube amps. Well, the rule of thumb is that a low wattage tube amp cannot be compared to the same amount of wattage as an SS amp. It's like comparing apples and oranges. You need more SS power to simulate the same pressure levels of lower watt tube amps. But that's not really relevant here for what you are asking and there are tons of threads you can search. No reason to review debates about power, watts and what they mean or don't mean here.

    cnh
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  9. #39

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    Quote Originally Posted by jerseybowler View Post
    I am not sure I agree that the Yamaha amp is that bad. It will push ..the M70 to a pretty high crisp level, before it starts to distort. My Pioneer Elite will not push the TSI 500 to as good or strong a sound. Maybe the Pioneer is a warmer amp, it just doesn't have the pop that the Yahama/ M70 has? if I can find a good used amp, at a reasonable price, I will likely go for it. I have a call into the local audio store. I will also consider new Emotiva and Rotel. This all started because I wanted a pair of RTI 7 orRTI 9 , and I also found some energy veritas, all of which I knew I could not push with my current amp.
    Your amp will drive most reasonably designed speakers out there, pretty much any speaker you'll buy. You do not necessarily need "more power," more refinement is a different issue.
    2Ch Tube Audio Convert

  10. #40

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    Quote Originally Posted by cnh View Post
    You mean Rti-A7s, A9s, right. Sure those will be a step up from your M-70s but you're going to need some more power there as well.

    Personally, I think the Energy Veritas series has a nice sound, and I do believe that your current amp could probably drive a pair of their mid-towers reasonably well. So that might also be a thought. Will they sound better with more power, probably.

    Some points made above are matters of debate. Certainly "quality" is important, but so are power reserves (storage capacitance) and dynamic response, damping, high current design, etc. In other words, compare a 1 or 10 watt load from an entry level AVR with, let's say the same load from a 250 watt x 2 Parasound amp and tell me that the Parasound is not cleaner, has deeper tighter bass, more refined mids and a lot more detail and spatial cues up top. Compare a lower wattage 60 x 2 watt Parasound to the 250 watt x 2 and you'll hear still hear the "difference" at the same wattage.

    As for tube amps. Well, the rule of thumb is that a low wattage tube amp cannot be compared to the same amount of wattage as an SS amp. It's like comparing apples and oranges. You need more SS power to simulate the same pressure levels of lower watt tube amps. But that's not really relevant here for what you are asking and there are tons of threads you can search. No reason to review debates about power, watts and what they mean or don't mean here.

    cnh
    Bottom line is that a better amp will be better. Your amp will work fine for all purposes you will probably put it through. Go out there, listen to some speakers, get educated, bring your amp along with you to auditions. You might like another amp/preamp what have you. A lot of dealers let you audition their speakers with your gear if you're willing to lug it along. Considering it's a receive it's much easier than lugging around monoblocks and a preamp.
    2Ch Tube Audio Convert

  11. #41

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    Hi everybody. I took your advice, and decided the first step was to upgrade my amp. I have been going back and forth for weeks on which amp, and from what store. I did not see any used deals that excited me, and no where around here to audition anything. A few stores told me that mating the Yamaha RX797 to an external amp would be a compromized by using the Yamaha as the pre-amp. I wound up working a pretty fair deal where I am trading the Yahama for a new Anthem 225 integrated amp with 225 wpc. Most of the reviews I read are very good. I paid for it today, and expect to have it early next week. The best part is I bought it from a trusted local store, and if there is a problem, I don't have to ship it somewhere. I can't wait to hook it up and hear how my M70s sound. It's probably a matter of time before I upgrade the speakers. One thing at a time. At least I feel the Anthem gives me a pretty good base to start with.

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