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  1. #121

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    There is no jumper on the inside for the model being discussed by the OP. IOt would simply be moving the wiring for that leg of the crossover to the same posts as the the other. This would not be a permamanet move (IE it could easily be reveresed.). It also is not complictaed. It can be done by removing the terminal cup alone. This is what i was geting at with my last question to DK. His answer indicates he has discussed his reasoning on this already but i currently haven't gone back to look at that. My thought would be like Face; no jumper should be better; 1 less item/ point to introduce any artifacts.
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  2. #122

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    Quote Originally Posted by DarqueKnight View Post
    You never know what will work, or not work, until you try it. I formerly had the low frequency and high frequency wires of my crossover soldered to the low frequency binding posts. When I upgraded the binding post plate and went back to a jumpered connection for the HF and LF binding posts, I was amazed that the jumpered connection sounded better than the directly soldered connection.
    Found it... thanks for pointing that out Mr. B. (That's the problem with having half a dozen conversations going on in the same thread.) There is some even more detailed info cut and pasted into post #40 on this thread. It sounds like DK's setup is the amp connected to the LF posts which are jumpered with silver wire into HF posts, and that sounds better than wiring HF and LF to the same signal input directly. That is super counter-intuitive, but who knows... it seems like people generally characterize silver as sharpening highs at the potential expense of deadening the lows, so this would seem to be a particularly good application for sliver jumpers. I recently re-read another of DK's posts from a while back saying that using a silver lead (from a Dueland resistor, I think) as a jumper on a crossover PCB made a noticeable improvement over a tinned copper jumper. So, if these are auditory hallucinations, at least they are consistent auditory hallucinations. (To be abundantly clear, I don't think they are hallucinations.)

    I guess the key takeaway is start looking for places to insert silver into your signal path.
    Last edited by On3s&Z3r0s; 04-23-2014 at 12:43 PM.

  3. #123

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    Quote Originally Posted by heiney9 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by villian View Post
    Likewise, I believe that a listener (Trained or not) experiencing a Placebo Effect would actually hear something. But, just because they hear it, doesn't make it real.
    That has to be the dumbest statement about audio I have ever read. Seriously, reread what you wrote. What a retarded thing to say. That's sig material right there.
    H9
    I was talking about the human brain and the Placebo Effect...

    If you don't understand that then maybe you should Google it. Goes to show just how much ignorance there is on this board regarding the Placebo Effect...
    Too many good quotes to list..waiting for some fresh ammo. :)

  4. #124

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    Quote Originally Posted by villian View Post
    Surely you guys aren't talking about me..because I already stated that high quality jumpers make a difference over low quality ones (Notice I said quality, not price) due to the fact that they carry an analog signal. I'm not debating that at all. I just think it's a little funny when you can sit there and pick out the things that DK picks out when comparing cables...especially something as otherwise insignificant as a jumper cable. Things like this give me a bit of a laugh...
    So you believe that analog cables to make a difference, yet you argue the fact that jumper cables make a difference when they carry an analog signal. I'm a bit confused on your stance here? You say that they make a difference, but actually HEARING the difference is absurdity? What the hell are you even arguing?


    The answer? Nothing. You're trolling for the sake of trolling and your arguments in this thread have absolutely no credibility given your statement above.
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  5. #125

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    Quote Originally Posted by villian View Post
    I was talking about the human brain and the Placebo Effect...

    If you don't understand that then maybe you should Google it. Goes to show just how much ignorance there is on this board regarding the Placebo Effect...
    You are correct about your ignorance. There is no placebo effect for listening to music after changing a component. Only those not knowing what they are talking about use ignorant psuedo-science nonsense to rationalize their trolling.

  6. #126

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    Name:  afim.413chan.net_fim_src_134424136054_dont_feed_the_troll.jpg
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  7. #127

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    Quote Originally Posted by nspindel View Post
    Agreed, all possible ground has been covered in this thread. Let it die . . .
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  8. #128

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    Quote Originally Posted by drumminman View Post
    Agreed, all possible ground has been covered in this thread. Let it die . . .
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  9. #129

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    I could see the troll standing in front of a mirror pondering, is it me or the placebo effect?
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  10. #130

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    I sometimes forget that most of these "discussions" and "debates" are only for those who agree with some of you and your points of view. Everyone else is just a troll! How silly.

    I'm far from ignorant, but for the life of me, I can't figure out why so many of you are so very dead set against picking which jumper or speaker cable sounds the best to your own ears in your own home in your own rig unless you know which one is in place for each listening session. All I can come up with is that you're afraid that that "upgrade" that you just made with its huge price tag would not have been the one you would have preferred without that information. COMMON SENSE tells me that I can listen to some of my own music that I've heard a gazillion times before and compare it to repeated samples with a simple change out of jumpers/cables and pick out the one that sounds best TO ME, even without knowing which piece of wire is in play. The day I'll accept the notion that I need to be educated and trained on how to listen to what I like to hear in my music, so I will know which one of several samples I enjoy more, or can tell which one is "actually" better, is a day that will never come.

  11. #131

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    Quote Originally Posted by villian View Post
    I was talking about the human brain and the Placebo Effect...

    If you don't understand that then maybe you should Google it. Goes to show just how much ignorance there is on this board regarding the Placebo Effect...
    Man just give it up. I can easily see that tohers are picking and chooseing your words to argue over things you say but not the point you are making. There is not just ignorence surrounding the placebo effect, but there is also a lot of good knowledge on other details. many of the members have been here for a long time and if you have not fit in with them you will be the troll. just accept it for what it is and agree to disagree and move on. It will not end. The male ego is a fragile thing and bashing for the humor of friends is seemingly ingrained in the male psychie. I get what i think is your main point and agree but also see where it is unimportant to someone elses system but your own, or my own, their own, etc. We each must only be happy with our own system for whatever reasons we are happy with them; sonicly, visually, monetary, etc.

    Just give it up and stop the measuring. I just measured and I think mine is the biggest anyway.
    If con is the opposite of pro, is Congress the opposite of Progress?!


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  12. #132

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Bubbles View Post
    My thought would be like Face; no jumper should be better; 1 less item/ point to introduce any artifacts.
    Quote Originally Posted by On3s&Z3r0s View Post
    It sounds like DK's setup is the amp connected to the LF posts which are jumpered with silver wire into HF posts, and that sounds better than wiring HF and LF to the same signal input directly. That is super counter-intuitive, but who knows... it seems like people generally characterize silver as sharpening highs at the potential expense of deadening the lows, so this would seem to be a particularly good application for sliver jumpers.
    It does seem counter-intuitive that a jumpered connection might sound better than a directly soldered one. However, there is more to wire than just the wire. Wire can be milled in one direction and have better conductivity and lower noise in one direction than the other. Since most of the current travels on the surface of a conductor, polishing the surface can also reduce noise. The type of insulation used also has an effect on noise performance. Insulation has dielectric properties and can absorb and release energy into the signal. Termination quality is a commonly overlooked and vital component in cable noise reduction. Soldered connections are electrically noisier than pressure welded connections. Solid core litz wire exhibits less noise than stranded wire due to the absence of strand interaction.

    In my case, I replaced a stranded wire, soldered connection between HF and LF binding posts with a solid core wire, non-soldered connection.

    Quote Originally Posted by On3s&Z3r0s View Post
    I recently re-read another of DK's posts from a while back saying that using a silver lead (from a Dueland resistor, I think) as a jumper on a crossover PCB made a noticeable improvement over a tinned copper jumper. So, if these are auditory hallucinations, at least they are consistent auditory hallucinations. (To be abundantly clear, I don't think they are hallucinations.)

    I guess the key takeaway is start looking for places to insert silver into your signal path.
    I caution against a blanket statement that a cable made of silver is always better than one made of copper. I have heard some unpleasant sounding silver cables. Silver is 5% more conductive than copper, but silver's conductivity advantage can be met by making a copper conductor 5% bigger. Again, attention must be paid to how a cable is constructed and terminated rather than just focusing on the type of metal conductor material.
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  13. #133

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    Quote Originally Posted by teekay0007 View Post
    I sometimes forget that most of these "discussions" and "debates" are only for those who agree with some of you and your points of view. Everyone else is just a troll! How silly.
    I always welcome different viewpoints, provided they are based on reason.

    Quote Originally Posted by teekay0007 View Post
    I'm far from ignorant, but for the life of me, I can't figure out why so many of you are so very dead set against picking which jumper or speaker cable sounds the best to your own ears in your own home in your own rig unless you know which one is in place for each listening session. All I can come up with is that you're afraid that that "upgrade" that you just made with its huge price tag would not have been the one you would have preferred without that information.
    For the life of me, I can't get anyone in the DBT/Null Test crowd to explain why blind tests should be used for scenarios for which they were not designed. I also can't get anyone to explain why, since bias are such powerful mindbenders, the concept of the "debiased consumer" is an established research topic in the field of economics.

    Quote Originally Posted by teekay0007 View Post
    COMMON SENSE tells me that I can listen to some of my own music that I've heard a gazillion times before and compare it to repeated samples with a simple change out of jumpers/cables and pick out the one that sounds best TO ME, even without knowing which piece of wire is in play. The day I'll accept the notion that I need to be educated and trained on how to listen to what I like to hear in my music, so I will know which one of several samples I enjoy more, or can tell which one is "actually" better, is a day that will never come.
    I thought that one aspect of "training" was doing something over and over again until you become proficient at it. Haven't your ears become trained by listening to the same music over and over again? You don't have to go to a formal school to become an expert marksman. You can just buy a gun, go to a safe area and practice shooting.

    You are not one of those people who thinks training and education can only occur in a classroom are you?

    Since you are so adept at picking out sonic changes in your system, are you saying that if you knew which cable or jumper you were listening to, your gazillion hours of listening experience would be nullified? Are you saying that you would be unduly influenced by the price, brand and appearance of an item and that those things, rather than what you hear, would have more influence on your performance evaluation?

    If I put in one cable and hear the percussion two feet to the right of the right speaker, then with another cable the percussion is directly in front of the right speaker, how is knowing which cable is in use going to influence my spatial perception?

    If I put in one cable and hear more sustain and decay on piano notes, then with another cable the sustain and decay is truncated, how is knowing which cable is in use going to influence my ability to hear harmonics and fine detail?
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  14. #134

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    I have a question before this thread dies. So many of these threads have reviews and observations based on having a "trained ear". I fully admit before joining this forum that I had no idea that you could actually hear the sound stage if you sit still and just concentrate on the music. I've taken advice from this forum; i.e., speaker placement, trying different speaker cables, acoustic panels, applying Dynamat and I am able to hear a difference. But how does one go about training their ears to hear the subtle difference that a lot of you speak of? I'm sure a lot of you that have been in this hobby for years can pick out changes in sound that I would not be able to. How did you get to that point to where you can pick up on "slight" changes? This might be why some people say that cables don't matter, because they don't know how to listen. It was never the norm for me to sit still while listening to music, it was more like background music, until I joined here. Is it just that some people have more sensitive hearing than others or is there a way to actually learn how to pick up on the most subtle changes in music?
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  15. #135

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    Get your ears on a bunch of systems. Ask people while listening to systems what it does well and what it doesn't do well. If you want to train your ears, the easiest way to do it is to join a local audio society or attend some of the get-togethers and just listen to the experienced folk talk about it all.
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  16. #136

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hermitism View Post
    I have a question before this thread dies. So many of these threads have reviews and observations based on having a "trained ear". I fully admit before joining this forum that I had no idea that you could actually hear the sound stage if you sit still and just concentrate on the music. I've taken advice from this forum; i.e., speaker placement, trying different speaker cables, acoustic panels, applying Dynamat and I am able to hear a difference. But how does one go about training their ears to hear the subtle difference that a lot of you speak of? I'm sure a lot of you that have been in this hobby for years can pick out changes in sound that I would not be able to. How did you get to that point to where you can pick up on "slight" changes? This might be why some people say that cables don't matter, because they don't know how to listen. It was never the norm for me to sit still while listening to music, it was more like background music, until I joined here. Is it just that some people have more sensitive hearing than others or is there a way to actually learn how to pick up on the most subtle changes in music?
    Like most -- no ALL - of DK's threads, this one provokes thought and helps educate us all -- except those who do not care to learn.

    I've been reading this thread since its inception, nd I've learned a lot. I've also been ruminating over a point very similar to the one Hermitism raises and which DK has noted time and again in this thread -- people can learn to listen. Those of us who want to talk intelligently about our subjective listening experiences must learn not only to listen critically, but also to describe what we hear in terms that communicate effectively with others. In other words, we need a "critical vocabulary" that we all understand and share. This becomes the subjective equivalent of the kinds of empirical data that DK uses and present so effectively to explain and justify his analyses. He also is a master of both critical listening and critical writing about what he hears subjectively. A lot of the nonsense that he so patiently rebuts -- in the manner of a master teacher -- reflects his ability to express his analyses in his threads.

    My education is in criticism of English literature, and while I was teaching and writing about literature, I struggled to develop a vocabulary to convey my critical approach to others interested in the theory and criticism of prose fiction. since turning to this hobby, I've been struggling to learn and apply a critical vocabulary to my listening experiences so that I can convey them intelligibly to my colleagues on this forum. Criticism of music or any subject is an "interactive" process -- that is, you observe something that you must find terms to describe; then, after you learn terms to describe phenomena, you are able to discern them, even though they were there all the time.

    I hope this is not too confusing, and I am not trying to hijack DK's remarkable thread. If that is what this appears to be, I apologize, and please ignore this rambling. With that said, I would like to lay out for discussion and comment a rough cut at some structure and vocabulary for characterizing our listening experiences.These are outlined in "Categories" (1-4) and "Characteristics" within categories (a-x).

    1. Dynamics
    a. Speed of transients
    b. Delivery of Transients without Loss of Definition Regardless of Source – e.g., Solo, Ensemble,
    Full Orchestra – and Regardless of Volume Level
    c. Impression of Strain (or Absence of Strain) with Challenging Passages
    d. Handling of Reproduction across Full Frequency Range

    2. Definition
    a. Voices of different sources (vocals, instruments) are clear and distinct
    b. Modulations of sources are clear and distinct
    c. Realism and verisimilitude of rendering
    d. Complexity of source accurately reproduced

    3. Timbre
    a. Richness
    b. Coherence
    c. Neutrality (Naturalness/Accuracy/Without Coloration)
    d. Nuanced
    e. Clarity

    4. Spatialization
    a. Image
    b. Size, Dimensions, Three-Dimensionality
    c. Placement of Sources of Sound within Image
    d. Precision Compared to Live Performance
    e. Stability
    f. Openness and “Airiness” (separation of sources on sound stage)
    Last edited by Moose68Bash; 04-23-2014 at 10:12 PM.
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  17. #137

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    What leads to the cable debate is not which sounds better or worse it's when someone tries to say there is no difference at all that's when the crap hits the fan.

    Last year 4 of us gathered in a room testing headphones 3 picked one I picked the other, it's what I liked no debate just an opinion.

    I happen to like a pair of speaker cables in my rig and can swear by them. Let Skip borrow them a few minutes later in his rig and they sounded bad. We liked them in mine but it was very noticeable that they didn't sound well in his.

    Teekay some times I wish I didn't get into the critical listening part of the hobby but either way I enjoy it. Some care to a certain extent and some of us are radicals just like in any hobby, not a bad thing. Look how radical art enthusiasts are paying millions for splattered paint or a photograph of a mountain.
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  18. #138

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    Quote Originally Posted by DSkip View Post
    Get your ears on a bunch of systems. Ask people while listening to systems what it does well and what it doesn't do well. If you want to train your ears, the easiest way to do it is to join a local audio society or attend some of the get-togethers and just listen to the experienced folk talk about it all.
    You're going to make fun of me for this, but I've purposely tried to stay away from listening to high end audio systems. I haven't walked in a high end audio store. I have such an obsessive/compulsive personality when it comes to hobbies. When I got into scuba diving, and had to buy every piece of equipment, every accessory. I'm an avid fan of shooting sports and am a gun collector. A lot of people argue, "Why should someone have so many guns?" But to anyone that shoots guns will tell you that a "brand A" 9mm shoots different than a "brand B" 9mm. Just like different brand audio equipment sounds different. I have that urge to own every caliber, every style holster, every upgrade. Audio is such an expensive hobby. My goal was to buy a HT/music system on the used market at a good price and try to make it the best it can be "within reason" (low dollars) by trying different tweaks I've learned from this forum. I'm currently happy, but will be happier after a sub upgrade. Skip, I know from reading your posts that you are not one who is happy "settling", you are always looking to upgrade and find that better sound. That's what I'm afraid of. If you inherited my system, I know the first thing you would do is sell it off in search of something better. I'm afraid that if I hear something that sounds amazing, I will lose the "happiness" that I have now and not be satisfied until I reach a higher plateau. I see the prices that some of you are willing to spend in this hobby and I am scared of that "addictive behavior" that I have with my hobbies. For me, ignorance is bliss, perhaps.
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  19. #139

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hermitism View Post
    I have a question before this thread dies. So many of these threads have reviews and observations based on having a "trained ear". I fully admit before joining this forum that I had no idea that you could actually hear the sound stage if you sit still and just concentrate on the music. I've taken advice from this forum; i.e., speaker placement, trying different speaker cables, acoustic panels, applying Dynamat and I am able to hear a difference. But how does one go about training their ears to hear the subtle difference that a lot of you speak of? I'm sure a lot of you that have been in this hobby for years can pick out changes in sound that I would not be able to. How did you get to that point to where you can pick up on "slight" changes? This might be why some people say that cables don't matter, because they don't know how to listen. It was never the norm for me to sit still while listening to music, it was more like background music, until I joined here. Is it just that some people have more sensitive hearing than others or is there a way to actually learn how to pick up on the most subtle changes in music?
    The things you say you are able to hear are within the norm of what the average person on this forum probably hears. To be able to hear the differences in jumper cables as described in the thread you will have to jump on the band wagon and be willing to drink the Kool-Aid. I prefer to remain neutral and let common sense tell me what I can and can't hear.

    I don't think I will ever be able to tell the differences in how copper wire is polished or tell the difference in the type of insulation that is on the wire by listening to a speaker connected to it no matter what training my ears get. Differences like that are measured by test equipment and the results are shown with charts and graphs. Charts and graphs are fine for informational purposes. However, I believe some people on this forum are trying too hard to hear what is is being displayed on the charts and graphs.
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  20. #140

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    Have you ever thought about the fact that some on this board actually can?

    Tom
    In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence.

    The best way to enjoy digital music reproduction is to never listen to good analogue reproduction.

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    Quote Originally Posted by treitz3 View Post
    Have you ever thought about the fact that some on this board actually can?

    Tom
    I have thought about it but never considered it to be a fact.
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  22. #142

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    Quote Originally Posted by TennMan View Post
    I prefer to remain neutral and let common sense tell me what I can and can't hear.
    Personally, I prefer to let my ears tell me what I can and can't hear. Common sense only works if you have some, and common tells me to clean my ears for optimum hearing.

  23. #143

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    Hermit, I appreciate your acknowledgement to my dedication to the hobby, but realize it is my only hobby essentially. Part of that hobby has been a bit of a side job of flipping gear. Because I've run through so many pieces, on top of having the fortune to attend LSAF annually, I've been able to train myself and hear differences that 3 years ago I scoffed at when people tried to explain them. If you ever step up from the 60 mph batting cage to the 80 mph batting cage, it might take you a while to be able to drive the ball, but eventually you'll be knocking those 80 mph balls around even harder than you did in the slower cage. The first step is moving up to the faster machine and being willing to show some humility as you chase those faster pitches.

    Don't knock your system. While I probably wouldn't own 98% of the rigs on this board, that doesn't mean that our members don't have systems I'd enjoy. My system is rooted in 2 channel, something different than most on this forum. The majority end up here with a HT rig that pulls double duty for music. Mine is the other way around. Adding tubes to my system was a complete mind**** and sent me on a spiral deep into the 2 channel world. If I had a separate setup for HT, or a HT-based rig for dual purpose, trust me when I say your system would definitely be on the short list. It's a matter of preference/design of the system is all.


    For those of you who CHOOSE to limit your journey, congratulations on putting your foot down and saying the buck stops here. I personally wouldn't listen to as much music as I do if I didn't have the rig I have now. The performance it offers makes me want to sit down and listen any chance I get. Any other rigs I have had have been in the car or served as background music. Now, I do nothing but listen and enjoy the hell out of it.

    If you're limiting yourself, that doesn't mean you should place the same limit on others. Accept that some are simply more dedicated to the hobby and have likely spent massive amounts of time listening/critiquing to decide how they want to continue the journey. Just because you can't hit that 80 mph fastball doesn't mean someone else can't.
    Last edited by DSkip; 04-23-2014 at 11:36 PM.
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  24. #144

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    Quote Originally Posted by DSkip View Post
    For those of you who CHOOSE to limit your journey, congratulations on putting your foot down and saying the buck stops here.
    Exactly right......and there is not one thing wrong with that......but when it stops, it stops. It really does end there. For others who continue on, not so much.

    Tom
    In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence.

    The best way to enjoy digital music reproduction is to never listen to good analogue reproduction.

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    I have no problem with others spending large amounts of money for audio/video. I can certainly understand it; I've gotten so much enjoyment out of my system since I've had it, so I see how spending money can be justified and worthwhile. I'm in an extremely unique situation compared to most here...I can say that my system is the best I've ever heard. I can honestly say that because I've never had an opportunity to hear better equipment, or a dedicated two channel system, or tubes. My listening experience for equipment consists of Circuit City, HH Gregg, and Best Buy. And it's been years since I've listened to their stuff. I guess what I'm saying is I've tried to use expanding Styrofoam insulation to plug up the rabbit hole. So far, it seems to be holding.
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  26. #146

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    Quote Originally Posted by TennMan View Post
    The things you say you are able to hear are within the norm of what the average person on this forum probably hears. To be able to hear the differences in jumper cables as described in the thread you will have to jump on the band wagon and be willing to drink the Kool-Aid. I prefer to remain neutral and let common sense tell me what I can and can't hear.
    Comments referring to "drinking Kool-Aid" is not remaining neutral. If your common sense can tell you what you can and cannot hear, it should also tell you other people might be sensitive to things you are not.

    Quote Originally Posted by TennMan View Post
    I don't think I will ever be able to tell the differences in how copper wire is polished or tell the difference in the type of insulation that is on the wire by listening to a speaker connected to it no matter what training my ears get.
    If you choose to limit your progress in this hobby that is your right. It does not make sense to belittle others who persue things you are unwilling or unable to understand. That is what "class clowns" do.

    Quote Originally Posted by TennMan View Post
    Differences like that are measured by test equipment and the results are shown with charts and graphs. Charts and graphs are fine for informational purposes. However, I believe some people on this forum are trying too hard to hear what is is being displayed on the charts and graphs.
    Well this is an interesting twist. For the longest time naysayers raved about "if the differences audiophiles talked about existed, they would be measurable". Someone comes along and provides scientifically valid measurements, and now the party line is that audiophiles are forcing ourselves to hear the difference displayed in the measurements. I do commend you for not falling back on the tired old naysayer mantra of, "yeah, the difference is measureable, but it's inaudible" (all the while never justifying their belief in the inaudibility of the data).
    "Polk SDA-SRSs are hopelessly out of date both sonically and technologically... I see no value whatsoever in older SDA speakers."~Audio Asylum Member
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  27. #147

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hermitism View Post
    How did you get to that point to where you can pick up on "slight" changes?
    Quote Originally Posted by Hermitism View Post
    Is it just that some people have more sensitive hearing than others or is there a way to actually learn how to pick up on the most subtle changes in music?
    There is nothing mystical or special about trained perception. By analogy, one might ask you do you know something is wrong with a friend even though they are smiling and saying nothing is wrong. The answer is that you have gotten to know them, and their emotional phases, over time. Someone who knows them casually will be fooled, but you are able to see through any mask they might throw up.

    You get good with listening the same way you get good with seeing, smelling, tasting, touching: practice. How do you practice listening? Listening in the sweet spot with properly set up speakers and good quality recordings. Focus on where sound images are located in space and on the size, shape and sound quality of those images. Draw maps of where the images occur in the sound stage and make notes of the character of the sounds. Listen to the same records many times and try to catalog the placement and character of every sound in the sound stage. You will be surprised at all the different sonic elements that make up a recording and even all the different sonic elements that make up the sound of a single instrument.

    For example, a piano solo can be a symphony in itself. You can spend many hours trying to document the following:

    1. The weight and clarity of hammer strikes.
    2. The sound of notes reverberating in the wooden body.
    3. The "ticklish" nature of the highest notes.
    4. The overtones of one note blending with the beginning of another.
    5. The decaying vibrations of strings.
    6. How tall, wide, and deep the sound image of the piano is.
    7. The force of the pressure wave created by low notes.
    8. The exact "location" of the piano in three dimensional space.
    9. The stability of the sound image if you move your head to either side or turn you head to one side or the other.
    10. The ambient reflections of the recording space.

    For all of the piano attributes above, different equipment will render the attributes differently. Now, imagine the things to catalog if you are listening to an entire band, or an orchestra!

    Quote Originally Posted by Hermitism View Post
    This might be why some people say that cables don't matter, because they don't know how to listen.
    That is true of some people. Others just like to argue.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hermitism View Post
    I have no problem with others spending large amounts of money for audio/video. I can certainly understand it; I've gotten so much enjoyment out of my system since I've had it, so I see how spending money can be justified and worthwhile.
    Most true audiophiles are cheapskates. We don't spend money just to be spending money, we spend money to get the level of performance we seek, just like in any other hobby.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hermitism View Post
    You're going to make fun of me for this, but I've purposely tried to stay away from listening to high end audio systems.
    That is unfortunate since listening to high quality, high resolution audio systems is one of the best ways to train your ears.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hermitism View Post
    I haven't walked in a high end audio store.
    Unfortunately, audio stores that cater to knowledgeable audiophiles are a rare breed these days. Now the emphasis seems to be on selling the most expensive gear to the most gullible with the means to pay.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hermitism View Post
    I have such an obsessive/compulsive personality when it comes to hobbies. When I got into scuba diving, and had to buy every piece of equipment, every accessory. I'm an avid fan of shooting sports and am a gun collector. A lot of people argue, "Why should someone have so many guns?" But to anyone that shoots guns will tell you that a "brand A" 9mm shoots different than a "brand B" 9mm. Just like different brand audio equipment sounds different. I have that urge to own every caliber, every style holster, every upgrade.
    I differentiate between true hobbyists, gear heads and collectors. True hobbyists, in any hobby, are in it for learning and growth. Gear heads are about owning as much equipment as possible, with little to no desire to become proficient, or expert, at using that equipment. Collectors are discriminating gear heads who have some appreciation of the value and purpose of the gear they own.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hermitism View Post
    Audio is such an expensive hobby.
    Audio is no more expensive than any other hobby, like, for example, playing marbles or reading and collecting comic books. There is a crazy notion that you MUST spend a lot of money to get a quality system. That is not true...especially when you consider all the high quality gear on the used market.

    There are nuts who, when they run across two audiophiles with long experience who are discussing the merits of an expensive piece of high performance audio gear, they get butthurt and think that said audiophiles are emphasizing that EVERYONE should go out and buy the item under discussion. I thought it was just common sense that every hobby has practitioners at every level of proficiency and degree of interest.

    I didn't get into audio because I wanted to spend a lot of money. I got into audio because I love music and I love listening to well-recorded, well-reproduced music in my home. The equipment is just a means to that end. Quality does cost money, and the higher you go up in quality, the closer you get to the aural and tactile sensations of an actual live performance.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hermitism View Post
    I'm afraid that if I hear something that sounds amazing, I will lose the "happiness" that I have now and not be satisfied until I reach a higher plateau.
    When I am on business trips or vacation, I often sometimes rent vehicles that are much better than the ones I own. I attend the local "Parade of Homes" every year where builders showcase their residential construction expertise. Never once have I driven a rental car or toured a high end home that made me dissatisfied with what I have. What I have serves me very well at this time, and I am always happy to go back to my car, my truck, my house. They are like old friends. I like to keep up with what is available so that when I am in the market for a new car, truck, or house, I can make a more informed, debiased purchase decision.

    I have nine different audio systems ranging from the Sony "boombox" in my garage to my two channel audio system which has a retail value of over six figures. I don't love the most expensive system and hate the others. They all do what I want them to do, which is play music. My focus in this hobby is on the enjoyment of music, not on the enjoyment and bragging rights of collecting audio gear.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hermitism View Post
    I see the prices that some of you are willing to spend in this hobby and I am scared of that "addictive behavior" that I have with my hobbies. For me, ignorance is bliss, perhaps.
    Awareness of a problem is the first step toward solving it.

    Again, a true hobbyist focuses more on learning than spending. Satisfaction with any hobby is greater when you take things slow and spend as your level of knowledge and proficiency increases over time.
    "Polk SDA-SRSs are hopelessly out of date both sonically and technologically... I see no value whatsoever in older SDA speakers."~Audio Asylum Member
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  28. #148

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    Quote Originally Posted by TennMan View Post
    However, I believe some people on this forum are trying too hard to hear what is is being displayed on the charts and graphs.
    Quote Originally Posted by DarqueKnight View Post
    Well this is an interesting twist. For the longest time naysayers raved about "if the differences audiophiles talked about existed, they would be measurable". Someone comes along and provides scientifically valid measurements, and now the party line is that audiophiles are forcing ourselves to hear the difference displayed in the measurements. I do commend you for not falling back on the tired old naysayer mantra of, "yeah, the difference is measureable, but it's inaudible" (all the while never justifying their belief in the inaudibility of the data).
    Agreed.

    Also, I think it can it be said TennMan, that some are trying too hard to justify what they can't hear; all the while bashing those that can hear what those that can't hear.
    Taken from a recent Audioholics reply regarding "Club Polk" and Polk speakers:

    "I'm yet to hear a Polk speaker that merits more than a sentence and 60 seconds discussion."

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  29. #149

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    Quote Originally Posted by headrott View Post
    Agreed.

    Also, I think it can it be said TennMan, that some are trying too hard to justify what they can't hear; all the while bashing those that can hear what those that can't hear.
    I might be guilty of trying too hard to make my point but I'm not bashing anyone. I'm just expressing my opinion (and it's just that and nothing more) on why some people claim to hear differences in audio components that the average person cannot. I don't mean any disrespect to DK or anyone else on this forum.

    I think DK is probably one of the smartest and most well educated men on this forum when it comes to audio equipment. Although he doesn't list his speakers and associated gear in his signature, I think he probably has the best of everything. I wish I could say the same of myself and my equipment. I read everything he writes and learn a lot from it. That doesn't mean I have to agree with everything he says. I'm sure he doesn't agree with a lot, or maybe most, of what I say but that doesn't mean we are bashing each other. We are just expressing differing opinions in a civil manner.
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  30. #150

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    Quote Originally Posted by DarqueKnight View Post
    Most true audiophiles are cheapskates. We don't spend money just to be spending money, we spend money to get the level of performance we seek, just like in any other hobby.


    Audio is no more expensive than any other hobby, like, for example, playing marbles or reading and collecting comic books. There is a crazy notion that you MUST spend a lot of money to get a quality system. That is not true...especially when you consider all the high quality gear on the used market.
    Used market aside, the new market is also a great place to play IF you can hold out and wait for a sale price or a clearance deal, take a look at my signature, the living room system, most of the pieces were bought new at deep discounts, heck the AVR was over half off normal retail up here. The used piece, the amp, yeah used but it'll rock til the house comes down.


    I learned if you look around, take a little time to invest in your gear, rewards will come in spades. Can I say my big system is a barn burner? No, will it provide me with hours upon hours of listening enjoyment? That is a huge yes. Knowing I scraped this beast together on a shoestring and what it'll bring to the table is simply stunning. Now to upgrade the cables...another story, another day, another thread.

    In all honesty, one does not need to pay full retail, I'm a cheapskate audiophile and I'm proud of it.
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