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  1. #61

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    Most importantly villian (*not to diminish others' right to bash those who value expensive wire*); after reading DK's two threads regarding blind tests and early stereophonic evaluation, can you now see why blind tests are not suitable for stereophonic evaluation?
    Taken from a recent Audioholics reply regarding "Club Polk" and Polk speakers:

    "I'm yet to hear a Polk speaker that merits more than a sentence and 60 seconds discussion."

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  2. #62

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    I highly doubt you'd get a better review of anything than DK does. He goes to great lengths in his testing methods and explanations/details to tell you why he came to his conclusions....and includes measurements for the scientific crowd.

    Would I spend that kind of coin on jumpers for vintage speakers ? No....but that doesn't mean there aren't those that would. If you look at some SDA threads, people spend way more refurbing them. For me however, jumpers don't offer up big enough gains to warrant the price of expensive jumpers, just my .02. If you have the cash however, rock on and go for it. Audio is played on many levels, and because some of us can't participate on another level doesn't mean we should be throwing darts at those who can.

  3. #63

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    One of the missing elements in this thread (or maybe I'm just missing it) is a recognition of the differences in resolving power of equipment. Quality jumpers may make little to no difference in some rigs, and thus be cost prohibitive when it comes to laying out hundreds of dollars for them. But when you reach the level that I'm sure DK's rig has (based on following his various tweaking/equipment acquisition posts over the years), it's not difficult for me to imagine that easily discernible improvements can be heard with something as basic as a jumper.

    Having experienced it myself, there's no question that one learns how to listen: to 2 channel rigs, live music, HT, etc. Like all skills, some come by this more naturally with less training, others work a little harder to acquire it. We all base our judgements/opinions on our own experiences, but it's a good idea not to fall into thinking that because "you don't get it, it couldn't possibly be true or have merit."
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  4. #64

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    Let me start this post by saying I am not knocking either side or person in the argument in this thread. As said earlier DK has bruised my ego before on this forum. I am another that enjoys most of DK's threads because they are very detailed and descriptive. Usually containing at least some amount of emperical data. I understand he is an electrical engineeer, which i am not. It would stand to reason that he knows much more about any aspect of electrical detail than myself. I would bet that his pair of 1.2's would make mine sound like crap in either a blind test or a subjective test. I bet the differences would not be subtle. I also understand completely what Villian is saying. Someone please educate me if I am incorrect on this but I do not know that either of these two people are any better educated or versed in human psychology than myself or Dr. Phil for that matter. I mention that because it would seem that to thoruoghly understand subjective testing we would need to better understand human psychology along with methods of scientific study. I was only stateing before that as an outsider the argument looks like a measuring contest.

    I read bot DK'd previous threads on blind testing. I will admit that i got bored part way through the second and may not have been as thorough with it as the first. Some points i noticed in the first is that the information in it pertained to testing in the 1930's on through the 1960's. Part of it delt primarily with aural panorama. It also mentions added detail and other characteristics due to what the listener wanted to hear. In another part it mentions the need to remove all bias by possible use of a curtain.

    My personal thoughts on these points are that I could care less what audio systems sounded like in the 30's and most way through the 60's. i would bet that even my 1.2TL's have a lot more detail, panorama, and other subtleties than any of the gear from that time period. I would also think that this points to what i sad earlier. Big differences need no blind test. It would simply be a waste of time. I like listeners in those tests listen for things I want to hear. This does not make my listening emperical as scientific study would normally indicate. As far as removing the bias using a curtain, that would seem to indicate a blind test. The articel mentions that this was never used but does not indicate why. The article also mentions that subjective tests were preferred but does not indicate why. The second may indicate why and I missed it as well as some of the possible references that I did not research either. I assume the preference could be due to blind testing lacking some of the excitement for the new technology they were developeing at the time.

    I will further explain that I feel if educated listeners were used in blind tests they would be able to hear the same differences they hear in subjective tests if the differences are indeed there. however if uneducate klisteners were used in blind tests they may not hear a difference that actually exists. They may develope a bias based on visual stimuli and actually choose the better sounding gear, but not based on sound. This would be much less likley with educated listeners. The article describes the listeners as being educate listeners and also states that they were told what to listen for. In out tests at home we may not always know what we are listening for in a sepcific sense but as educated listeners we should hear those things any way. Blind tests should not negate that as if we are trained listeners we should hear differences whether we can see perfectly or are truly blind. Imagine how many blind audiophiles are in the world. is it logical to say that they cannot properly choose the best gear because they, by default, always perform blind testing? This is simply not logical. Infact there is scientific evidence to indicate that blind peiople are more atune to audible differnces that those who are not. (No I will not take the time to look up references for that, This thread is simply not worth that kind of time.) The main point of this paragraph is to say that for a truly educated listener it should not matter if a blind test is used or a subjective test. If their ears and training is great then they should hear the same detailes no matter the if testing is blind or subjective.

    I will now say that auditory preferences will always be subjective wheter tested in blind studies or not. Actutal changes in tonal characteristics will not be subjective. Wheter we like them or not will be. As I described earlier, I sometimes use blind testing. I used it more in the past when I was training my ears and brain to hear nuances. I also do not believe that blind testing is always necessary when testing ones own system. DK has no need to perform blind tests on his system as he is educated and a trained listener, but primarily because it is his system and in the end he should choose what he likes best whether it be from an entirely audible standpoint or not. I prefer vintage audio for reasons not always associated with the sound. I would bet there are many others the same as myself.

    In the end, I thank DK for his threads and input. he seems very well educated and thorough in his work. i try to learn what I can from the emperical data he provides and I read about his subjective opinions to see if they may spur my interest in something but accept them for just that; His opinions. I also know that scientific answers are based on emperical data and that opinions are what is called theories. With no emperical data they are jsut theories. Some right and some wrong. only the emperical data can prove them. Subjective opinions are not emperical data though they may sometimes find the same answer. If performed properly, blind tests could not hurt results of auditory tests but they could easily be a waste of time. (I do not have references for this but am basing this on my knowledge of human psycholgy, logic, and common sense).
    If con is the opposite of pro, is Congress the opposite of Progress?!


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  5. #65

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    Now back to the original thoughts on the thread; DK have you ever tried moving the lows/mids and highs internakl wiring to the same binding posts. This woulsd seem like an easy test by simply removing the terminal cup. I realize this would not be an option for those who bi-wire or bi- amp but it would seem that if one is using jumpers as you are this would be something to possibly consider.

    Also from an engineering perspective can you give more info on why silver wire may sound different than copper. I know from testing I was involveed in in the past that it is a much better conductor, even when oxidized. In fact silver doesn't appear to loose any conductivity when oxidized as compared to most other metals. however it would seem that just an increas in efficiency should not change tonal characteristics of a larger guage of a lesser efficient conductor. I realize that the impedance will change with AWG due to possible changes in inductance and capacitance but is there enough chnge in these to truly effect the sound of a larger guage less efficient conductor such as copper to the smaller guage silver with the same efficiency. If so can you give a little more detail on why.
    If con is the opposite of pro, is Congress the opposite of Progress?!


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  6. #66

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    Quote Originally Posted by tonyb View Post
    I highly doubt you'd get a better review of anything than DK does. He goes to great lengths in his testing methods and explanations/details to tell you why he came to his conclusions....and includes measurements for the scientific crowd.

    Would I spend that kind of coin on jumpers for vintage speakers ? No....but that doesn't mean there aren't those that would. If you look at some SDA threads, people spend way more refurbing them. For me however, jumpers don't offer up big enough gains to warrant the price of expensive jumpers, just my .02. If you have the cash however, rock on and go for it. Audio is played on many levels, and because some of us can't participate on another level doesn't mean we should be throwing darts at those who can.
    Yep Tony, you said it best, some of us have more money to spend, some of us don't, and then you have people like me with a beer budget that make do with what we can. We all do what we can to get what we want or need. I'm doing what I can to improve my set up incrementally now, the gear is now set, now it's time to look at the wires hooking it all up. I'm sure there's sonic improvements to be had there since I'm using shall we say less than stellar ICs and speaker wire. Now to start searching through DKs wealth of threads on here about wire and others on what works for my rig but still keeping it "budget friendly".

    Some of us make the best of what we got. I'm in that camp but do enjoy reading about $20,000 speakers and gear that I'll probably never lay hands on, but it's always fun to dream of "what if?"
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  7. #67

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Bubbles View Post
    Now back to the original thoughts on the thread; DK have you ever tried moving the lows/mids and highs internakl wiring to the same binding posts.
    Yes I have. I discussed this in post number 23 and beginning near the middle of post number 40 of this thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Bubbles View Post
    Also from an engineering perspective can you give more info on why silver wire may sound different than copper.
    Silver sounds different from copper for the same reason that copper sounds different from brass, steel, aluminum or any other electrically conductive metal. They all have different electrical noise characteristics due to their grain and crystal structures and they all have different effects on the electrical energy moving through them. That is why different types of copper have different sound characteristics. Imagine a person swimming through different rivers that have increasing amounts of obstructions of different sizes and shapes.
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  8. #68

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    Thanks. As soon as I got to grain and crystal structure it made a lot of sense. The analogy in my mind is water flowing around a cylinder is much easier than around a rectangle.
    If con is the opposite of pro, is Congress the opposite of Progress?!


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  9. #69

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    villian made it to my bozo list from another thread. glad to see i'm not the only one who finds him more annoying than stepping in dog droppings.

    Ray, always a pleasure reading your write ups. This is a problem I don't need to solve since I run 4.1TL's, but I never get tired of your posts.
    Good music, a good source, and good power can make SDA's sing. Tubes make them dance.

  10. #70

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    Quote Originally Posted by villian View Post
    For what it's worth I know of a guy running Infinity IRS V ($100,000 stereophonic speaker set) on some bargain bin no-name type wiring. Sounds absolutely amazing and he says he wouldn't change a thing about it. Working on room treatments instead.
    Over the years, it seems every no experience scoffer who tries to claim supreme knowledge about cables always knows somebody with a 6 figure stereo that uses cheapo generic wire. The 6 figure stereo owner never comments on these threads (and this applies to other forums where 6 figure stereos are commen). Rather, it is always a third hand story.

    For what it's worth...
    Apparently, it isn't worth anything.

  11. #71

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    Since the placebo effect keeps getting thrown out as an explanation for why a stereo sounds better with a cable upgrade, I decided to try and find some evidence for it. Granted, I just did a quick Google search, but all I found were studies in the traditional definition of the placebo effect. That is with individuals in drug studies showing medical improvement while being in the control group taking the placebo. So far, I haven't seen anything saying some people hear differently when no difference exists.

    What appears to be happening is some people do not understand what is occurring with medical studies involving drug placebos, and are taking that phenomena and misapplying it to other situations that are irrelevant from the placebo perspective.

    I suppose it is possible that one could imagine a different sound from a stereo when it doesn't exist. After all, some people hear voices in their head, but they appear to be a very small minority part of the population. On the other hand, a more rational explanation for hearing a difference in a stereo after a change it because there is a difference.

  12. #72

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    The post that keeps on giving

  13. #73

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    Quote Originally Posted by villian View Post
    I bet you have some Kimbal Kable wire too?
    It's Kimber Kable and you would lose that bet.

    Glad to see that this thread has totally turned into a money pissing contest while I've been gone.
    It's sad that is what you think this thread turned into, but speaks volumes as to your mind set.

    At least Dark Knight had a valid argument in that the most expensive wires aren't automatically the best, nor are they worth gloating about.
    Talk about twisting words.
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  14. #74

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    Jessie this one ain't worth your time. Put him on your bozo list where he belongs.
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  15. #75

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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueFox View Post
    What appears to be happening is some people do not understand what is occurring with medical studies involving drug placebos, and are taking that phenomena and misapplying it to other situations that are irrelevant from the placebo perspective.
    Quoted for truth and emphasis!

    Quote Originally Posted by F1nut View Post
    It's sad that is what you think this thread turned into, but speaks volumes as to your mind set.
    I can't imagine that a simple mention of comparably priced and higher priced items would amount to a pissing contest. I shouldn't be surprised though. This is the same person that assumed that the purpose of this thread was to promote the highest priced alternative, when anyone who has been reading me for a while knows that I do cartwheels at the prospect of saving money.

    Quote Originally Posted by F1nut View Post
    Talk about twisting words.
    Is it that cable threads bring out the worst in people, the worst people, or both?
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  16. #76

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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueFox View Post
    Over the years, it seems every no experience scoffer who tries to claim supreme knowledge about cables always knows somebody with a 6 figure stereo that uses cheapo generic wire. The 6 figure stereo owner never comments on these threads (and this applies to other forums where 6 figure stereos are commen). Rather, it is always a third hand story.
    Even if the six figure stereo owner provided his name and address, it wouldn't be an indictment of high performance cables. Most people are not interested in optimizing performance. I can understand why someone with a six figure equipment investment would balk at the idea of doing "upgrades". After spending 100 grand or more, would probably think that the thing should be 99.9999999% perfect.
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  17. #77

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    Quote Originally Posted by DarqueKnight View Post
    Even if the six figure stereo owner provided his name and address, it wouldn't be an indictment of high performance cables. Most people are not interested in optimizing performance. I can understand why someone with a six figure equipment investment would balk at the idea of doing "upgrades". After spending 100 grand or more, would probably think that the thing should be 99.9999999% perfect.
    ...and I'd suggest that those who spend $100k on speakers and spend "nothing" on other components are grandstanding. Those who wish to get the most out of their system buy it for the intended purpose. Those who just flop down that kind of money without a care for optimization buy them as a status symbol.
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  18. #78

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    Quote Originally Posted by DarqueKnight View Post
    After spending 100 grand or more, would probably think that the thing should be 99.9999999% perfect.
    You are so right Ray. I do not know how many times I have had conversations with people that relay that very sentence. The other is " I've paid very good money so I didn't have to invest more" Only we have the sickness

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    Quote Originally Posted by pitdogg2 View Post
    The other is " I've paid very good money so I didn't have to invest more"
    Yet, they will buy a "goddess" trophy wife and spend a fortune on face, butt, and boob "optimization".
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    Quote Originally Posted by DarqueKnight View Post
    Yet, they will buy a "goddess" trophy wife and spend a fortune on face, butt, and boob "optimization".
    Yeah, good way to have a "natural presentation" with "lifelike imaging" :)
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    Quote Originally Posted by DarqueKnight View Post
    Yet, they will buy a "goddess" trophy wife and spend a fortune on face, butt, and boob "optimization".
    Well YEA!!! Then several years down the road "invest" more to ship her down the road....Talk about return on investment...NOW that is a "rabbit hole"

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    Quote Originally Posted by nbrowser View Post
    Yeah, good way to have a "natural presentation" with "lifelike imaging" :)
    The basis of stereo system optimization is the removal of electrical and mechanical noise that diminishes signal quality. If done right, the modifications work in harmony with the design of the equipment and this does result in a more "natural" and "lifelike" sonic presentation.

    Plastic surgery results are often unnatural looking, deteriorate over time, and often work against the body's natural functions.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DSkip View Post
    ...and I'd suggest that those who spend $100k on speakers and spend "nothing" on other components are grandstanding. Those who wish to get the most out of their system buy it for the intended purpose. Those who just flop down that kind of money without a care for optimization buy them as a status symbol.
    I have to agree with this. I would hope that anyone who spends that kind of money on an entire stereo, let alone speakers, loves music, and would want it to sound its best. However, I can imagine there are people who just give a blank check to a decorator, and tell them to put a good system in a room.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DarqueKnight View Post
    Yet, they will buy a "goddess" trophy wife and spend a fortune on face, butt, and boob "optimization".
    No placebo effect there!
    Good music, a good source, and good power can make SDA's sing. Tubes make them dance.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pitdogg2 View Post
    Well YEA!!! Then several years down the road "invest" more to ship her down the road....Talk about return on investment...NOW that is a "rabbit hole"
    Right! Can't just replace the caps.....
    Good music, a good source, and good power can make SDA's sing. Tubes make them dance.

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    Excuse the digression. But the Placebo effect in Medicine does NOT mean that the "effect" is imaginary or did NOT happen. The problem Medical Science has is to explain just HOW the MIND is affecting the BODY in a VERY VERY tangible and REAL way. It is producing an effect that actually heals the body in many cases.

    Otherwise an interesting discussion.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DarqueKnight View Post
    The basis of stereo system optimization is the removal of electrical and mechanical noise that diminishes signal quality. If done right, the modifications work in harmony with the design of the equipment and this does result in a more "natural" and "lifelike" sonic presentation.

    Plastic surgery results are often unnatural looking, deteriorate over time, and often work against the body's natural functions.
    Hrm my reponse was to be a funny with the context of the quoted post, apologies if taken wrong.
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    This is the most entertaining thread I've read on here in quite some time. Nothing to add here other than I do hope it continues.
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    Quote Originally Posted by nspindel View Post
    No placebo effect there!
    A placebo is something that seems to be real, but it isn't. I think a store bought face and body could be considered a placebo in a relationship, just like a store bought sugar pill is a placebo in a medical trial.
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    Quote Originally Posted by cnh View Post
    Excuse the digression. But the Placebo effect in Medicine does NOT mean that the "effect" is imaginary or did NOT happen. The problem Medical Science has is to explain just HOW the MIND is affecting the BODY in a VERY VERY tangible and REAL way. It is producing an effect that actually heals the body in many cases.

    Otherwise an interesting discussion.

    cnh
    I don't find it surprising that placebos "work" in some medical trials. Doctors and medicine don't heal the body, they only assist the body in healing itself. Stress is both a cause and an aggravating factor in many diseases. If a placebo calms a person's mind to where the brain can focus on fighting a disease and healing, rather than worrying, then the placebo is just as valid a medicine as one with an active ingredient.

    This highlights how the "placebo effect" is misapplied in audio trials. In medical trials, performance is measured by whether or not a placebo had an effect on a specific medical condition. Blind audio trials are about perceiving some nebulous, ill-defined or undefined sonic "difference" between two pieces of audio equipment, rather than measuring a specific performance attribute.
    "Polk SDA-SRSs are hopelessly out of date both sonically and technologically... I see no value whatsoever in older SDA speakers."~Audio Asylum Member
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