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  1. #1

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    Default Hey, that Sony sounds good...What, did I just say that out loud???

    I've neve been a fan of Sony stuff, sure I've mentioned this before on this forum somewhere...

    So I went tonight to listen to the Denon and Yamaha to do some comparing, and thought "Hmmm, lemme see how bad that Sony over there sounds compared to these"

    So I ruled out the Yamaha immediately...it has a very warm sound to it, I just didn't like as much. The Denon had a very bright sound to it...I like alot of highs and therefore liked the Denon alot.

    Then came the Sony. I listened to this just to appease the sales guy. I was completely blown away by the sound. Is it the best I've ever heard? Of course not, let's be realistic...

    But I will say that it's the best thing I heard tonight. I liked it over the Yamaha, Denon, and Pioneer Elite...

    I was truly impressed. Note: I only listened in two channel stereo, but am assuming if that's good then moves will be great.

    What I don't know is if it sounded so good becuase I was in shock expecting crap, or whether ir truly is a good piece of gear. I'm going back tomorrow night prepared and am doing some more informed listening.
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  2. #2

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    Pay VERY close attention to all the settings on the receivers.

    Have fun testing,
    PolkThug

  3. #3

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    Default

    Originally posted by PolkThug
    Pay VERY close attention to all the settings on the receivers.

    Have fun testing,
    PolkThug
    Could you expound a bit?
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  4. #4

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    Alot of receivers in stores are effed up...

    CC receiver round hurr.....

    The bass is set to 3+, and the treble to 10+............
    www.Vr3Mods.com ///// www.Version3Audio.com

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  5. #5
    Stronzo
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    Sony makes incredible cd players..........and make even better transports.... Your findings are not suprising in the least.

  6. #6

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    I agree with the suggestions on receiver settings. I also agree with you about the higher end Sony stuff. I heard some PSB towers on a Sony ES receiver and I was blown away. Better than my 800i/Onkyo set up I had at the time. Try to demo them again with bass/treble settings flat or bypassed and make sure bass management is not screwed up.

    Maurice
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  7. #7

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    Is this Sony reciever one of the new ones with a digital amplifier? I am not sure that I would want to play high rez on one of these because the input signal is converted from analog into PWM (pulse width modulation), and then amplified, and then reconverted into an analog signal. I don't think that this is the ultimate way to enjoy high rez audio.
    Rocky Bennett

  8. #8

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    I have the 3000ES, and I like it alot. It's running LSi15's 9's C and FX's From what I have read on the forum, my LSi's are greatly under driven by this amp, but as I have nothing to compare, They sound GOOD. I would love to demo some amps and preamps on the LSi's, but Somone will have to lend me eqip as I am broke from buying thise speakers and the amp.
    http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y42...626/Purple.jpg
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  9. #9
    Old School
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    I think the point of the comparison caution is that a dealer can make anything sound better, or worse, than something else by the set up.

    AVR's with EQ capability deep in the set-up scheme are even more tamperable (if that's a word) than good ol' 2 ch's with their knobs right in your face.

    Thing that got my attention above was saying that anything could sound brighter than a Yammie. Maybe they've cooled their sound some, but it would have to be more than a bit...
    More later,
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  10. #10

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    Cool thanks for the insight guys....I'll pay more attention to the details tonight when I go back...

    As far as them setting up receivers to make them sound one way or another...they weren't even trying to sell me the Sony, were trying to sell the Yamaha really hard...

    I wanted to listen to the RX-V740, but they were having issues, so I had to listen to a stereo eceiver instead, so I'm going back tonight to compare again...
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  11. #11

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    Just be wary of pulse width modulation digital amplifiers!!!
    Rocky Bennett

  12. #12

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    Originally posted by therockman
    Is this Sony reciever one of the new ones with a digital amplifier? I am not sure that I would want to play high rez on one of these because the input signal is converted from analog into PWM (pulse width modulation), and then amplified, and then reconverted into an analog signal. I don't think that this is the ultimate way to enjoy high rez audio.
    I'm not sure, it was the DA1000ES...and I totally understand what you're saying about the Hi Res audio, but do have a couple quick questions:

    What is a 'digital' amplifier? I've seen those 'digital path' receivers by HK as well that use digital amplifiers, but I don't really get the technology behind them. HK tries to explain it that everything is received by the receiver as digital (which is at least true for movies), and that most receivers normally break it down to analog using a D/A converter, but that these digital path receivers don't have to do that becuase they have digital amps, and don't have to convert it to analog first. But unless the way speakers work has changed in the last 36 hours, they still have to convert it to analog before finally sending to the speakers, right after the signal is amplified, right?

    So what's the difference? Why are they trying so hard to push these new receivers?

    When Hi Res audio is received by the receiver (a regular receiver, not one of those digital path receivers) through it's 5.1 inputs, is it EVER converted to digital, or does it just remain an analog signal throughout?
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  13. #13

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    In a conventional reciever the analog signal from a high rez audio source is never converted into a digital signal, it is passed through the pre/pro circuitry without any undue modification and then simply amplified. This is the ideal method of playing back high rez audio sources. In the new digital amplified recievers, the signal is first converted into a digital stream (pwm) and then amplified in the digital realm. A digital amplifier utilizes the concept of the binary code representing certain functions, not values. Thus, a "0" is off, a "1" is on. Due to this concept of "on" or "off", the transistors in a digital amplifier are either fully on or fully off, there is no in-between. This scheme is said to provide a higher current on-demand characteristic than an analog amp, as well as running cooler and being more energy efficient. But the problem comes in with the "fully on" or "fully off" feature. The transistors are acting more-or-less like switches, which cuts down on their life expectancy tremendously.

    The other little prblem with a digital amp is that even running a digital input from a DVD player into your reciever provides a PCM signal which must go through a D/D (digital to digital) convertor to turn it into a PWM signal. Thus, no matter what you are amplifying, the signal must undergo a conversion from it's native state (either analog or PCM) into a PWM signal and back into an analog signal. Hence the quality of the final signal (and ultimately the music we hear) is now more dependent on the quality of the D/A convertors than it is on the amplifier itself, since the amplifier is not actually amplifying music it is simply switching current.

    Maybe I am just having a philosophical problem with digital amplification, but for right now I am staying away from it. And besides this whole scenario is academic because the Sony 1000 is not a digital amplifier.
    Rocky Bennett
    Rocky Bennett

  14. #14

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    The 1000 reciever is the only ES reciever that is not usng a digital amplifier. The 2000, 3000, 4000 and 5000 ES models are all running digital amplifier sections.

    Rocky Bennett
    Rocky Bennett

  15. #15

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    Originally posted by therockman
    Maybe I am just having a philosophical problem with digital amplification, but for right now I am staying away from it. And besides this whole scenario is academic because the Sony 1000 is not a digital amplifier.
    Rocky Bennett
    I would agree as well. Doing some research, something about that whole idea doesn't seem right to me...
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  16. #16

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    Over at AVS, there has been conflicting information, but it seems that Sony is doing a recall on the x000ES receivers. I guess there's a problem with a hissing sound.

  17. #17

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    There is/was a "recall" on alot of early Sony x000ES ES models due to a audible "hiss" at varying volumes. This has apparently been corrected. It took a concerted Sony forum effort and many complaints to even get Sony to acknowledge that fact, but at least it is being addressed. The efforts to get it resolved, are however on the owner, not Sony. I think that's a bit unfair.

    As far as "be wary of PWM digital amplification", that's subjective, and opinion. I don't care for the theory or application either, nor do I intend on owning anything in that format. I prefer a more grass roots design for the power portion of my gear. Sony has their own proprietary way of applying DA to their gear, not neccesarily the actual design theory.

    I have demo'd the new line, including SACD, and found nothing that would steer me away from them. Performance wise, they did everything just fine.
    Last edited by dorokusai; 03-24-2004 at 12:26 PM.

  18. #18

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    Originally posted by dorokusai
    There is/was a "recall" on alot of early Sony x000ES ES models due to a audible "hiss" at varying volumes. This has apparently been corrected. It took a concerted Sony forum effort and many complaints to even get Sony to acknowledge that fact, but at least it is being addressed. The efforts to get it resolved, are however on the owner, not Sony. I think that's a bit unfair.

    As far as "be wary of PWM digital amplification", that's subjective, and opinion. I don't care for the theory or application either, nor do I intend on owning anything in that format. I prefer a more grass roots design for the power portion of my gear. Sony has their own proprietary way of applying DA to their gear, not neccesarily the actual design theory.

    I have demo'd the new line, including SACD, and found nothing that would steer me away from them. Performance wise, they did everything just fine.
    Doro, sent you a PM...
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  19. #19

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    "Due to this concept of "on" or "off", the transistors in a digital amplifier are either fully on or fully off, there is no in-between."

    If that's the case, wouldn't the output be at max whenever it's turned on? The output of a transistor is determined by the input voltage at the collector (Vc) which can be varied. If it's fully on all the time, you won't be able to change the volume. Or are they using Pulse Amplitude Modulation to control the volume?

    "The transistors are acting more-or-less like switches, which cuts down on their life expectancy tremendously"

    Transistors are pretty much switches anyways. Even in an analog amp, the transistors are constantly switching on/off. The transistor turns off whenever the base voltage (Vb) is under 0.7V in a sin wave. The amount of time the transistor is turned on or off depends on the frequency of the signal.

    Constant swtching will not hurt the transistor at all. There are no moving parts in a transistor. There's only a semi-conductor material sandwitched between two conductive materials. All you need is 0.7V in the base to make them conduct electricity from the collecter and out through the emitter. The only way to damage a transistor is to pump voltage that is over their rating and not providing a heat sink for them.

    Are digital amps using some new type of transistor we're not aware of?

    Maurice
    Last edited by organ; 03-24-2004 at 01:59 PM.
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  20. #20

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    oops double post
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    "I would rather have a cup of tone than an ocean of power" **Dr. Harvey Rosenberg**

  21. #21

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    I'm just a security guard, I am not an electronics engineer (and I don't play one on TV), but my understanding of the subject is that the whole thing with "gain" is controlled because of the fact that it is PWM instead of PCM. The musical signal is represented by a stream of "0's" and "1's" of varying length. The longer the pulses the higher the signal amplitude. In other words, the transistors are switched on and off very quickly by the PWM data; the longer the transistors are turned on, the greater the signal amplitude.

    Rocky Bennett
    Rocky Bennett

  22. #22

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    Oh, now I get it. You had PWM mixed up. It's using both PAM and PWM. PWM determines how long the transistor is turned on for and PAM determines the amplitude of the signal by raising or lowering the 0V reference line. Took me months to figure out how an amp can be 'digital'. I feel much better now:).

    Maurice
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    "I would rather have a cup of tone than an ocean of power" **Dr. Harvey Rosenberg**

  23. #23

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    Maurice, I am so glad that this subject is becoming clearer to you because I still don't understand it at all. But anyway, I do understand what you are saying about the life expectancy of a transistor, and how it should not be effected by the "on" "off" feature of a digital amplifier. But like I said earlier, maybe it's just my old age that is makeing me wary of digital amplifiers.

    Rocky Bennett
    Rocky Bennett

  24. #24

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    Rocky,
    If I can find my power point presentations about PAM and PWM from school, I'll e-mail it to you. Very easy to understand once you see the pics.

    Maurice
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    "I would rather have a cup of tone than an ocean of power" **Dr. Harvey Rosenberg**

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    Organ - If you could make them available to the forum, that would be fantastic. I would like to at least know the basic theory behind it all, even if I don't like it :)

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    Great, that would be interesting. I am very interested in the technical side of our audio hobby.


    Rocky Bennett
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  27. #27

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    He took down the PP presentation from the site. I'll have to check and see if I saved it on disk somewhere at home. Anyways, I'm on my spare right now, don't have class for another hour and I'm very bored. Here are some easy explanation.

    You can see that with PAM, the 0V reference line can be moved up or down to control the volume. In this pic, the voltage is less than 10V because the reference line was slightly raised.
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  28. #28

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    With PWM, the amount of time the transistor is on can also be controlled. So with a combination of PAM and PWM, the volume and the amount of time the transistor is on can be controlled.
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  29. #29

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    I think that I am beginning to understand. By encodeing a musical signal into a combination of pulse amplitude modulation and pulse width modulation, the time factor becomes the most significant factor in the equation. I guess that Einstein would just love digital amplification. Because you can alter the volume in space (represented by "m") by altering the digital signal in time, (represented by "c")??? Thus e+mc2...Or something like that.

    Rocky Bennett
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    What you said there is very interesting. I guess the time factor will become as important as D/A converters or sampling rate on digital sources. This could be something we'll be looking for in the future when purchasing digital amps.

    On more thing I've been thinking about is where the digital signal is converted to analog after amplification.

    Maurice
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    "I would rather have a cup of tone than an ocean of power" **Dr. Harvey Rosenberg**

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