LP vs CD

[madmax]

On Sunday I met with a fellow audiophile and he demonstrated how much better LP's sound than CD's. My TT setup is decent but it doesn't sound like this one. It was truely better in all respects than the CD. On my system the TT is only better in a few aspects and worse in others. He gave me some tips on what to do.

The sound was more open, real and not nearly as compressed sounding. It seemed to be a much bigger sound which really involved the room whereas the CD was merely coming out of the speakers. I have seen the light. Now if I can just find the end of the tunnel!
madmax

[warviper]

How do you gys feel on the durability issue on the lp's do they wearout over time?

[Frank Z]

Yes they do wear out. Anytime you have contact between the stylus and the lp there is going to be some wear taking place. It takes a long time, but it does happen.

[organ]

What model CD and LP players did he own? I still haven't heard a high quality TT set up, so for now, I'm happy with my CD's.

Maurice

[gidrah]

Some day I'll get there. For now I'm still at the "Used LPs are cheap and abundant." stage.

[pixiedave]

Here is some interesting comments on vinyl.
http://www.thebear.org/essays2.html#anchor506008

[RuSsMaN]

If you have a good stylus, and have it tracked and weighted properly - worrying about LP's wearing out is almost as pointless as worrying about say, preamp tubes wearing out.

Yes, they have a lifespan, but you'll most likely never reach it.

I prefer the sound of vinyl on most selections, but it really comes down to a convenience factor for me, and CD wins out for more regular use.

Cheers,
Russ

[madmax]

The CD setup was a Theta Data Basic II with an Audionote 1.1 DAC (which I purchased from him). It was run through a passive preamp with a built in phono stage. I knew I should have written down the names because now I can't remember. He used an EL-34 tube amp and AR speakers. The turntable was one of the real high end models. It had a Benz L2 cartridge.

I went to purchase the CD setup from him but after hearing the LP's I was really thinking I should be spending the cash to upgrade my turntable. After talking about it we concluded I probably needed to tweak the arm settings and possibly try a new cartridge. This is the first quality turntable setup I've heard other than my own. It was an eye opener for me!

madmax

[steveinaz]

Digital is here to stay; I just wish the technology would move forward at a faster rate. Hell, we have computer processors that run in the Giga-hertz range--why can't we master/record/play compact discs at much higher (therefore more fluid) resolutions? This would give us the analog sound we crave...

One of the reasons SACD/DVD-A are sucking in the market is because everyone knows its another "we're almost there" proposition...stop screwin' around and develope a truly audiophile format--no holds barred, and quit selling all this interim crap!

[shack]

Iwill never again buy a new album on vinyl. The ONLY motivation for buying a new LP on vinyl would be if it is an album that is not on CD that I MUST have. I will listen to the LPs that I own from time to time (200 ±) on a decent TT with a decent cartridge etc... The improvement in SQ vs the PITA (pain in the ass) factor is not worth it to me. This is the reason I own two 5 disc SACD changers. If you enjoy all of the maintence of a vinyl collection....more power to you. Been there...done that...make mine digital...

[madmax]

Originally posted by shack
If you enjoy all of the maintence of a vinyl collection....more power to you. Been there...done that...make mine digital...

Well, for me it is the sound. If I can work an extra hour a week and improve the sound, well, it is more than worth the effort. It is all about that 3 minutes you listen to a song and realize you are hearing something very special that 99.9% of the people in the world NEVER get to hear... That is a very special event for many of us. If it were all BS I would agree with you totally, but it isn't.
madmax

[Tour2ma]

LP...

What TT do you own max? Cartridge?

[shack]

Originally posted by madmax
Well, for me it is the sound. It is all about that 3 minutes you listen to a song and realize you are hearing something very special that 99.9% of the people in the world NEVER get to hear... That is a very special event for many of us. If it were all BS I would agree with you totally, but it isn't.
madmax

Well...for me it is about the music. That certain song, phrase, guitar riff, bass line, acapela solo, etc, etc...that sends shivers down my spine...or that just makes me feel good...That is what it is about for me. Whether it is live, on an audiophile system, car radio or personal CD player...great music is great music. Wonderful music played on a poor system over poor music played on a wonderful system.

[mantis]

The only thing bad with Records is the fact they stopped making Them.

Shame

[hoosier21]

When did they quit making records?

[Frank Z]

I guess the new records that I see at my local record store and the ones that I see advertised in Stereophile are part of a vast commie plot to seperate me from my cash.:D

[RuSsMaN]

Originally posted by hoosier21
When did they quit making records?

Did they? ****, I better get out there today and load up!

[madmax]

Originally posted by Tour2ma
LP...

What TT do you own max? Cartridge?

My turntable is a Michell GyroDec with an Orbe platter upgrade (big 3" thick heavy platter) and an external power supply and isolated motor upgrade. The tonearm is a VME Ver IV. The cartridge is a Goldring 1042. The preamp is a Modulus 3A with standard phono preamp.

Shack,
We totally disagree on the music part! I would rather hear poor music reproduce faithfully than great music reproduced poorly. Along the same lines I would rather hear something live regardless of music content rather than great music through a poor system. It's OK to disagree though. :D

madmax

[shack]

Originally posted by madmax
It's OK to disagree though. :D

madmax

Then we will...

[Tour2ma]

max,
Gawd what a sad rig there. no wonder you can't get any jollies from it. You need to put it all by the curb when you see a red Honda Accord Coupe with TX plates parked there... :D

You should have gotten a Mitchell TT and an SME arm... ;)

[madmax]

Originally posted by Tour2ma
max,

You should have gotten a Mitchell TT and an SME arm... ;)

:o


After what I heard Sunday I know something is not what it should be. I think I cheaped out on the cartridge and now it is limiting everything. Somehow I just cringe at spending over a grand on a cartridge. I guess the problem is that I have audiophile tastes and a mid-fi job. :(

madmax

[00p225]

I love vinyl, and would have to spend quite a few bucks for a cd player that will beat my humble Technics SL-B5 belt drive and Denon DL-160 cartridge. Back in the old days we could only afford low priced cartridges, and with my current cartridge the clicks and pops are really held to a minimum.......dynamics are awesome as is the bass and treble, but the best thing is the width and depth of the soundstage with the Polk SDA-1c's. For a big wow factor I always throw on Supertramp's Cannonball from the "Brother Where you Bound" lp. This often brings stunned expressions followed by big smiles....:-)

[rlw]

MadMax alleged:

The sound was more open, real and not nearly as compressed sounding. It seemed to be a much bigger sound which really involved the room whereas the CD was merely coming out of the speakers. I have seen the light. Now if I can just find the end of the tunnel!

Now THAT is worth decloaking for. Glad to read that you've finally heard the truth, sir. Remember: every component upgrade in the vinyl chain will yield significant improvements - including the rack you place your table on. Different world from dig-it-all.

Hope all has been well.

Regards,

Bob

[madmax]

Hi rlw,
We missed you!!!

I don't know if you have been reading my other posts but my TT setup was better in many ways over my old CD player. Now that I just upgraded my CD the turntable is lacking in comparison. Keep in mind this is the same CD which sounded bad compared to the TT the seller had set up.

I think the Goldring 1042 cartridge may be the cause. Although it sounds very nice I don't think it is up to my new standards.

madmax

[Jstas]

Originally posted by steveinaz
Digital is here to stay; I just wish the technology would move forward at a faster rate. Hell, we have computer processors that run in the Giga-hertz range--why can't we master/record/play compact discs at much higher (therefore more fluid) resolutions? This would give us the analog sound we crave...

One of the reasons SACD/DVD-A are sucking in the market is because everyone knows its another "we're almost there" proposition...stop screwin' around and develope a truly audiophile format--no holds barred, and quit selling all this interim crap!

The main problem is that these 2 GHz processors may be 2 GHz but they are still only 32 bit processors. To advance the digital technology father, we have to start advancing the hardware technology farther. Right now, a 32 bit 3.0 Ghz system is still easier, cheaper and faster to manufacturer than a 1.5 GHz 64 bit system. Until it becomes profitable, you will not see anything much beyond what we have unless you go extremely high end. Even then though, unless you can get a hold of master tapes and make your own recordings of the master on to a Digital Audio Tape, you aren't going to be able to control the bit rate at which the media is recorded. You'll still be stuck with current bit rate CDs. Which is why everyone has such a hard-on for the new DVD-A. The media is more dense so it can support a higher bit rate.

[pixiedave]

Originally posted by Jstas
The main problem is that these 2 GHz processors may be 2 GHz but they are still only 32 bit processors. To advance the digital technology father, we have to start advancing the hardware technology farther. Right now, a 32 bit 3.0 Ghz system is still easier, cheaper and faster to manufacturer than a 1.5 GHz 64 bit system. Until it becomes profitable, you will not see anything much beyond what we have unless you go extremely high end. Even then though, unless you can get a hold of master tapes and make your own recordings of the master on to a Digital Audio Tape, you aren't going to be able to control the bit rate at which the media is recorded. You'll still be stuck with current bit rate CDs. Which is why everyone has such a hard-on for the new DVD-A. The media is more dense so it can support a higher bit rate.

even with a dat, you are limited to 16 bits 4800. So not really a huge up from cd at 16 4410. When i tape shows, I use a super bit mapper wich takes 24 bit samples and then processes them down to 16 bits on the DAT. Tascam makes a DAT that records at 24 bits, andn is backwards compatible to all 16 bit DAT's. But my soundboards I have recorded blow away cd sound. Even some of my micked recordings sound great.

[gshisme]

Originally posted by madmax
The sound was more open, real and not nearly as compressed sounding. It seemed to be a much bigger sound which really involved the room whereas the CD was merely coming out of the speakers.

Madmax, I absolutely agree with this opinion. I find myself looking for the LP before the CD equivalent. Most CD's IMO are mixed for lower grade audio systems, ie bass enhancement and what not. I will gladly deal with the nuances of LP's compared to the ease of use of CD's for better sound. My "Chicago" collection on vinyl sounds absolutely incredible with the NAD and SDA's and Transparents. Obviously my vote is for vinyl.

Greg