DVD-A and CD question.

[scottvamp]

I've been wondering.
Why did "they" make an entire new format like DVDA, so you need a special player and a disc that can only play on that one player????
Some of the live performances and soundtracks that I have a standard DVD sound awesome (breath taking even) weither they are DTS or DD or surround EX and so on. Many options.
Why didn't they just put music on standard DVD even if it was sound only? Video would be a bonus. I can not imagine that DVDA sounds much better than that. and
What the hell is a CD in DTS? It must be a DVD format to get DTS sound. Right. A cd is already digital. Just doesn't compare to DVD which is cleaner and more powerful to me anyway. Any feedback would be appreciated.

[juice21]

new format = more $$$ for them from people like us....:D

SACD is what really gets me... once they start remastering every cd in this 24/96 format (if they can find the master reel), for the best quality we are going to be lured into re-buying many of our favorite cd's. at least with DVD-A, you can own a DVD-V/DVD-A all in one component. i think it's still up in the air if these formats are really going to take over, it's alot of investment, or re-investment for many audiophile's for the best in recorded sound, but will the demand be great enough for it??? i don't know if i am ready to pay $20/disc to re-own all the discs i already own...

[DarqueKnight]

Most music is not recorded with the audiophile in mind, which means the sound quality sucks. If the master tape is crappy to begin with, no amount of remastering is going to remake it into an audiophile gem. Garbage In = Garbage Out.

I have purchased remastered versions of a few of my favorite albums, but these albums were well recorded to begin with.

I have auditioned some SACD's played on a high end system (Jeff Rowland pre and power amp, Dunlavy SC IVa speakers, Sony SCD-777ES). I wasn't compelled to go out and invest in SACD. Well recorded CD's can sound great, so I'll stick with what I have for now. The sorry bastards should have gotten it right the first time. Sony even admitted that the CD format was never intended to be a high fidelity format.

I did repurchase all of my favorite video titles in DVD. However, there is such a great leap in picture quality between VHS and DVD, coupled with the fact that I did not have that many movie titles in my collection anyway (around 20), that the repurchases were well justified. Plus, VHS hurts my eyes. I probably won't reinvest in another video format until they come out with holographic projectors.

[jcaut]

Well, I'll throw in at least one fact, and a couple of opinions:

There are DTS CD's available. The digital bitstream must be processed by a DTS decoder, either in the player itself or a receiver or separate processor. This is one way to get multichannel music from equipment that you probably already have. Music on DVD-Video, encoded with DD or DTS is another easy route to multichannel music.

The "problem" with both of these, (and where the "real" advantage to high-resolution formats like DVD audio and SACD comes in) is that DTS-CD's and DVD-video are both compressed. (I'm going out on a limb here, but I think the exception might be the occasional odd 96Khz/24-bit DVD-video. I believe these are two-channel, audio-only.) This almost certainly reduces the "potential" fidelity of the recording, though they still might sound very good. Technically, regular CD's should be capable of higher resolution.

My personal feeling is that the marketers of DVD-A and SACD are feeling that the higher resolution of their formats, alone, is not enough of a selling point, so they're really pushing the multi-channel aspect. There's nothing wrong with that-- You can get the best of both worlds. It's just that, if multichannel music is what you're really after, then you don't necessarily have to buy new equipment. What you really need is more multi-channel material, that's compatible with existing equipment, from the record companies. Which is not likely to happen......etc, etc.

CD's have limitations, no doubt. The new technology has much greater potential to sound better. But, it's like raife 1 said, there are not that many WELL- RECORDED CD's. I think that's a more serious problem than the technical limitations of the format.

Sorry if I was rambling!
Jason

[juice21]

there is an article by paul in the newest speaker specialist touching on these matters. check it out...

[Aaron]

Resistance is futile. I really don't know why everybody gets their pannies in a bunch about this topic. Just deal with the fact that after 20 years of CD's they've finally made something significantly better. It's about freakin' time. Nowhere does it say that you must go out and replace your entire CD collection with the new format. I think you should all be grateful for the fact that the players are so versatile and backward compatible. Jason, I think you're right on the money with your comments.

Aaron

[Steve@3dai]

Btw, SACD isn't 24/96... it's a direct digital stream that doesn't have a number, it's like 2million samples per second or something crazy like that.

DVD-A two channel = 192k/24bit
DVD-A multi-channel = 96k/24bit

From your friendly webmasters at www.3dai.com :)

- Steve

[RuSsMaN]

...tell us how you REALLY feel.

BTW, can I bi-wire my rt35's through my sub, and still use LFE?

What is LFE? Should I take the grilles off and stand on my head to listen to dvd-a? Instead of imagers, can I use pineapple rings?

Confused Russ

[Steve@3dai]

I think to properly listen to DVD-A/SACD you have to line your room with Dynamat, but I'm not sure ;)

The DVD player that I buy will play both SACD and DVD-A, but I'm not too worried about it at the moment.

- Steve

[scottvamp]

O.K some good dialog there but being the one that started this tread maybe I should restate the question a little.
Why couldn't they just put DVD-A on a standard DVD? My DVD player I have now has better freq. stats. than many players out there would be able to handle High Digital sound. It is HDCD. As many of the newer DVD models are coming to par.
Compressed or not there is plenty of space either way. That is my complaint. Not just a new format.
I embrassed DVD tech. before it was even available.

[jcaut]

Why couldn't they just put DVD-A on a standard DVD?

That's a reasonable question. I think the real reason is that it simply wasn't allowed-for in the original DVD standard. It was more like an afterthought.

And Aaron's right too, "resistance is futile". Just go with the flow. Players that will play all formats will soon be everywhere, if the record companies would get their acts together and worry about something other than copy protection.

Does anyone know if I'm correct about the two channel, audio only, 96 KHz/24-bit DVD's? I've never run across one, but I think I've read about them. That would be essentially the same thing as stereo DVD-A, correct? Well, not really. It'd be like two channels of a multichannel DVD-A.

BTW, scottvamp, nice pictures on the system showcase! He's practically got his lined with Dynamat!

Jason

[Aaron]

Why couldn't they just put DVD-A on a standard DVD?

I think a DVD-A disc is the same 4.7GB capacity disc used for video, it just uses a different encoding scheme on the disc. I think the reason DVD players don't support DVD-A is because it requires a fair amount of additional hardware which costs money. The primary hardware I can think of are 24 bit DAC's. You'll notice that most DVD players now days that cost over $400 or so support DVD-A.

My DVD player I have now has better freq. stats. than many players out there would be able to handle High Digital sound. It is HDCD. As many of the newer DVD models are coming to par.

I'm not really sure what you're trying to say here. "High Digital sound?"

Compressed or not there is plenty of space either way. That is my complaint. Not just a new format.

Like I said above, the issue isn't the space (since it's the same). It's the hardware. Also, the DVD-A standard was established later than DVD video and hence came to market much later. This explains why such capability isn't present in earlier players.

Aaron

[Aaron]

Does anyone know if I'm correct about the two channel, audio only, 96 KHz/24-bit DVD's? I've never run across one, but I think I've read about them. That would be essentially the same thing as stereo DVD-A, correct? Well, not really. It'd be like two channels of a multichannel DVD-A.

I don't think such discs exist, because regular DVD players don't possess the hardware (24 bit DAC's) to process such input. DVD-A comes in three 24 bit flavors: 96kHz. stereo, 96kHz. multi-channel, and 192kHz. stereo.

Aaron

[jcaut]

Here's something I found in the June, '01 issue of Sound and Vision related to multichannel formats and compatibility. It's a little large, at 282 Kb, but I was trying to keep it readable. If I'm reading it correctly, it says there are audio-only 96Khz/24-bit, DVD-video-format discs. My older Sony DVD player says it can OUTPUT the 96Khz-24bit PCM. I don't know if it can do anything with it internally. I thought it did have the 96Khz/24bit DAC's, but I don't see it in the spec's. It does have built in DD/DTS decoding.

[scottvamp]

These is what I am finding:
My Denon is 24 bit, 96khz------
The DVD-A version is 24 bit,192 khz
A standard cd is 16 bit,44.1
A HDCD is 20 bit ,?khz
This is interesting :
Can I play DVD-Audio discs on a current DVD-Video player?
All DVD-Audio releases from the Warner/Elektra/Atlantic family of labels are DVD Video-compatible because they contain a Dolby Digital surround sound mix.
http://www.dvdaudiopreview.com/about/index.html#two
I am going to buy the Metallica-Black at my local video store ---if it is in and try it out. Later:)

[Steve@3dai]

HDCD is 20bit 44.1kHz

Yes, most DVD-A (remember that in Orgasmo? If you've seen it) releases have a DVD-V track. I have the Bjork release with it.

I want DVD-A or SACD for their 192kHz/24bit stereo, not the multichannel aspect :)

- Steve

[scottvamp]

O.K. i'm back just bought and listened to the Metallica-Black DVD-A. This is the first time hearing 24 bit. FU$&IN Amazing, its like I just bought new high end speakers. The DD 5.1 mix is mindblowing. My 6.1 HT sounded flawless. The first thing I noticed is there is no background hiss at all---0 silence. Which is what I noticed from VHS to DVD video. I did not know my polk tweeters could sound so good. The bass was super deep and tight. I heard instruments and sound effects I never knew was on the album. The voices and instruments were dancing and echoing from speaker. Specific for each song. Front stage was truely clean and very powerful. I guess a found what I was looking for.
No it's still not DVD-A but it is a big step from standard cd. I have listened to HDCD's (there was a slight difference) on my new Denon and this Dolby Digital DVD-A is leapes above that even.
So inconclution, writing this tread made me dig and find what I wanted. I will be buying acouple more DVD-A's in the future.
I hope some of you out there try them out and see what you think. I'm very impressed. Later

[Aaron]

Did you listen to the DVD-A DD track in stereo or surround sound?

Aaron

[scottvamp]

I have to experiment with it more but stereo sounded awful. The surround DSP's all had good sound but each effected the sound dramaticly. The PCM on the stereo never kicked in and it usually does it on its own--no sub or anything in stereo mode. The normal Dolby Digital 5.1 surround by far is like night and day compared to any other. I still can't believe how awesome it sounds. You know how stereo is always stronger sounding on an audio track and you switch it to surround and the power of the front stage takes a nose dive with the rest of the speakers.
Not with this, its totally opposite. All speakers sound strong and clean with each speaker getting serperate attention. :D

[danger boy]

MY PS2 can play DVD A discs.. but it's only DD. not true DVD A. but the multi channel sounds amazing. I am a believer in DVD A. I predict DVD A will reign over SACD, because more people will be able to listen to DVD A then the Sony driven SACD.

I also learned that if your DVD player can play DVD A discs.. you have to hook it up to your receiver using the 5.1 analog outputs from the player to your receiver. Digital cables do not pass the 192kHz/24bit signal.

Finally, i think both of these new formats were developed for the audiophile people like us in this forum.. not for my mom and dad who are perfectly happy with their 20 yr old CD technology.
scottvamp, you are right. why can't they just put 192kHz/24bit bitstream on the DVD's we currently use right now? and not develop another new format.. just to piss us off I think.listen to Fleetwood Mac Rumors in DVD audio and you'll too be a beleiver

[scottvamp]

Danger boy, thanks for your input and understanding --interesting stuff about the analog--that is alot of cables to buy. I really like the DD music presentation alot. It make buying some DVD-A disc here and there worth it.:)