Weekend Shoot Out - DT BP6B vs. PA 70i/5

[VR3]

I know you guys always want me to spend alot of time with my gear before I post a review, well this won't be a review. But this will be for you guys to keep up-to-date on what is staying and leaving and why. I only have 2 days to compare these speakers and that will be the deciding factor.

I already started the compare and one model is already behind.

I will *NOT* post which model is which UNTIL the end of the comparison. They will be done as Model A, Model B.

I will be using familar music -- From Dave Mathews, To Linkin Park...

Anyways - Here is the gear layout.

Preamp - NAD 917
Amp - Soundcraftsmen PCR-800 (Def Tech BP6B, PA RTi70)
Amp 2 - Adcom GFA-545 (PA RT5)
CD Player - Denon DCM-280
Mains 1 - PA RTi70/RT5
Mains 2 - Def Tech BP6B
Subwoofer - SVS PCi 22-31

Disclaimer -
This entire shootout is based on my opinion. Please note, I am a Polk Audio and a Definitive Technology fan. I am not bias towards any of the speakers and each comparison will be done constructively. This is another reason why speakers will be referred to as Model A and B, and will be revealed at the END** of the shootout to control pissing contests.

The shootout will be updated each day and will keep you in touch with which one is ahead. Sunday night, the winner will be revealed.

Stay tuned. I will post pictures Monday.

[kingkip]

How can you say you're not biased when you are always ranting about how bad the xover is in the 70's? It'll be an interesting read, but don't go thinking you're not biased.

[VR3]

Dude - I hate the RTi70's Tweeter.

But you forget, I dont use it!!!!! Hello...

RTi70/RT5 review, the RT5 is on top of the RTi70 -- very nice combo, RTi70 carrying the mids and lows and the RT5 carrying the highs.

I am not biased in this review, trust me -- so far both are on the chopping block...both, as in they both might not stay - haha

But so far, one model is definetely ahead - but I had to rewire one because it thought it could handle low freqencies...hehe...but it cant.

Anyways, I am going back to get my listen on!

Stay tuned.....hahaha

But I am going to change how I am going to do this...

I am going to write a review Sunday night --- yes a review. And yes, it will be a long one...

However, I hope every RTi70 owner and RT5 owner reads it.

[VR3]

Weekend Shootout – Definitive Technology BP6B vs. Polk Audio Rti70/RT5

Gear –
Preamp: NAD 917
Amp 1: Soundcraftsmen PCR-800
Amp 2: Adcom GFA-545
Source: Denon DCM-280 CD Player
Mains 1: Polk Audio Rti70/RT5
Mains 2: Definitive Technology BP6B
Subwoofer: SVS Pci 22-31

------------------------- Aesthetics, Components

- Build Quality –
------------------------- Polk Audio Rti70
The RTi70 is made from ¾” MDF all the way around, with another ½” of MDF in the lower front. With a real wood veneer laid over the MDF. Where the drivers set, there is a ½” thick baffle to bring the drivers forwards. The grill looks like a cheap cloth, but upon closer inspection is very stiff and has a design pattern in it, it also does not pick up dust and does not get dirty. The Rti70 weighs in about 45 pounds each, and is 11.5”x8.25”x42.5”” (LxWxH).
------------------------- Polk Audio RT5
The RT5 is made from ¾” MDF all the way around. It has a plastic baffle to add more cabinet to the speaker. The grill is made from MDF, not plastic like the Rti70. It also uses the older Polk Audio logo, the one with the heart above the I, not the new logo. The RT5 is wrapped in Vinyl. The RT5 weighs in at about 15 pounds each, and is 10”x8.5”x14” (LxWxH)
-------------------------- Definitive Technology BP6B
The BP6b sports an unusual cabinet; the cabinet being wrapped in a ‘sock grill’, it draws absolutely no attention to itself. The cabinet itself, beneath the grill it built very well. The front and rear of the speaker, where the drivers are set, is made of 1” thick MDF. The sides however are made of ¾” thick MDF. The top of the cabinet has a ¾” high gloss black top cap. This can be easily removed like a grill to gain access to the sock grill. The bottom cap is 1” thick. The high gloss black is painted on, not vinyl. The Definitive weighs in at about 42 pounds each, and is 11”x7”x32” (LxWxH)

-------------------------- Components/User Friendly –

-------------------------- Polk Audio Rti70
The Rti70 is Bi-amp/wire compatible. It comes with carpet spikes, with detachable rubber feet for wooden floors. The wire terminals are on the back of the speaker, a major plus.
-------------------------- Polk Audio RT5
The only real thing the RT5 brings to user friendly, is the fact it is a bookshelf and can be placed in smaller areas.
-------------------------- Definitive Technology BP6B
The Definitive is not Bi-amp/wire compatible and this is a huge let down for me. As I think it would make more sense to be able to power the front and rear drivers seperately.
Another problem with the terminals, is the fact they are on the bottom of the speaker – so if you want to unhook/hook them up, you have to lay the speaker on it’s side to get to the terminals. Very annoying.
The carpet spikes on the Definitive are a lot better than the polks. They have a nut around them – that lets you adjust the height of the speaker. So lets say (since the Definitive is so short), you want to lift the front of the speaker to point it directly at you instead of at your chest. You can raise the front while the back lay on the floor. Which is what I have done in this demo. It also comes with plastic feet for wooden floors.

----------------------------- Driver/Port Layout –

----------------------------- Polk Audio Rti70
As most of you know, the Rti70 consists of dual 6.5” midbasses, and a 1” silk dome tweeter. It has an ARC port below the drivers to control the ‘chesty’ sound in voices.
It also has a down firing Power Port, which also acts as a base for the speaker.
----------------------------- Polk Audio RT5
The RT5 has one 6.5” midbass, and a 1” Polymer dome tweeter. It has two large front firing flared ports.
----------------------------- Definitive Technology BP6B
The BP6B has a front and rear firing 5.5” midbass, and a 1” aluminum tweeter.
It also has a 2” or 3” rear firing port.

----------------------------- Overall –

Overall, I would have to say they both have their pros and cons. The Definitives have the carpet spikes, the Polk have the Bi-amp/wire capabilities. They both look real nice, and are built like a tank. I would take either for looks.

Sound Review will be Sunday Night.

[VR3]

Thought I would get this out of the way as it really dosnt tell anyone anything as of my decision or real opinion with music, etc.

So here is the 'sound layout' portion.

---------------------------------- Sound

Highs –

---------------------------------- Polk Audio Rti70
As most of you know, this is my biggest beef with the Rti70, its highs. I think I may be able to explain it to you more extensively as of why. The silk dome, to me, sounds incredibly sibilant. With this sibilance, comes brightness, so it has a strong hiss with a forward sound to it. So when you cross that, with absence of detail – you gain noise. So you figure in this much, it equals a really bright tweeter, that is annoying, that has problems reproducing the snare, cymbals, ride, acoustic guitar right. This is clearly my opinion, but I just do not like the silk dome.
---------------------------------- Polk Audio RT5
The RT5 still rains on top in the high end for me in this shootout, it still has the clearness and detail I like the most, in the high end. It has a way of ‘mapping’ out the high end. It clearly reproduces each string in the acoustic guitar. It has detail, with no sibilance – making this an extra plus. The Polymer is also extremely laid back, leaving it ahead of the other two to my ears.
---------------------------------- Definitive Technology BP6
The Aluminum tweeter in the BP6B has been the more debatable thing to me so far. Everything about it leaves me confused. However, this thing picks apart recordings better then any of the above speakers. It has no forgiveness to any song. It is extremely accurate as a whole. The tweeter though seems to have the most problems reproducing the drums, IE: Cymbal, snare. It prevails in reproducing the ride the most, very clear. The cymbals, as I mentioned above – all depends on the recording. In some, it is a big noise that has no distinct sound. Then in others, it just walks around the others holding a torch doing the tuna dance. The high end also seems dependent upon the angle/height that you make the front with the carpet spikes. The higher you raise the front, the more sibilant the tweeter seems to get. The lower you put the tweeter, the more calm and refined it is. So it is basically up to you. In this demo I have raised the front to about ½”, which makes it fire a tad bit below my ears, which to me sounds best.

Mids –

---------------------------------- Polk Audio Rti70
This seems to be the strongest point of the Rti70, especially with the tweeter unplugged. With the tweeter hooked up, it seems to have a huge problem with the transition between the mids and highs. However, ran with the RT5 on top, the mids are clear and authorative.
---------------------------------- Polk Audio RT5
This seems to be the RT5’s other strong point, yet it’s weakest point at the same time. The RT5 has the detail, the smoothness to pull it off as a stand-alone speaker. The part though where it fails is depth. It has no depth, it doesn’t put you into the music, it puts you in the speaker. This though is easily forgotten with a subwoofer, as it controls the vocals and instruments with ease.
---------------------------------- Definitive Technology BP6B
This is definitely one of the stronger points for the BP6B. It has an extremely airy sound around every instrument. The transition between the mids and highs is smooth, no sibilance what so ever between them.

Lows –

---------------------------------- Polk Audio Rti70
Ah, this is one of the Rti70’s stronger points. The lows are pretty good; however, they are also slightly boomy. But, with most music they remain accurate and true. They don’t hit incredibly low though, around 40hz seems to be their drop off point.
---------------------------------- Polk Audio RT5
This is definitely the weakest point of the RT5. It has a nice mid-bass kick – around in the bass drum region, but other than that, a subwoofer will be needed.
---------------------------------- Definitive Technology BP6
OK, this by far was one of the more surprising things (at my Dad’s house) than anything. At my Dad’s house, the bass was extremely boomy, loud, and VERY authoritive. Not to mention, it drained the LIFE out of the Soundcraftsmen while doing that. However, upon bringing them home – the bass calmed down considerably. Gaining accuracy, yet keeping authorative. The bad part was, at higher volumes the BP6B lost clarity, and started to distort. Since my NAD 917 Preamp has no real crossover to mess with, I had to re-wire the setup the speaker wire method. Which I still enjoy so much more over the LFE cable by the way. Anyway, in doing this – the mids cleaned up and the bass was headed towards the SVS instead of the BP6B. This thing is rated to hit to 25hz – I would guess 40hz at most.

[HEINEY_9]

Vr3MxStyler2k3

So far I'm enjoying your detailed description of the speaker shoot-out. But, please include the music your using to review these speakers with as part of the review. It can give a much better point of reference especially if we know the music you are talking about when you describe the characteristics of each thing you hear.

Thanks looking forward to more!

Peace

Brock

[VR3]

Hey,
That comes up tonight

It will include drums - guitar, bass guitar, etc etc..

At the end I will include the songs I used. Stay tuned.

[VR3]

I decided to do this part of the review a tad bit different. I am going to combine everything into a Soundstage section ---

---------------------------------- Soundstage

---------------------------------- Polk Audio RTi70/RT5
The RTi70 and RT5 are stacked, the RT5 being turned upside down - with the RTi70 tweeter unplugged. Since I do not like the RTi70 tweeter, this is a good substitute. Anyway, back on topic.
The Polk's excell mostly in soundstage. However, their problem seems to be clearness and laying out the instruments. Although, they make it where you can easily say this and this is here and here. They can not exactly add depth to them. For instance, when playing Dave Mathews - the drummers starts out with just the snare, then a bunch of the instruments start kicking in, then the singer starts singing. Well, Ok - that is all well and good, but the snare is on top of the singers head, pounding him in the noggin with a wooden stick while making a snare noise. This isnt exactly my idea of depth. It gives no real sense of space between the drums and singer. Then when you throw in the guitar, it dosnt really give any seperation.
The soundstage can easily be consider deep though, in the sound sense - as stuff will fly behind you when they are meant to, and it will be wide when called for. The problem I find though is being captured in the music - they just kinda shout it out to me, not really giving me something to listen to. Infact, this isn't totally a bad thing. They let the music, of any kind - recording quality, nothing makes them sound bad (unless the recording just totally SUCKS).
The drums though on the Polks, like every other speaker I have ever owned, is questionable - it seems to be able to do all the pieces of the drums right - the part it seems to fail at is laying all of the drums out into layers - the seperation. The Polk just dosnt have the seperation I am looking for here.
The guitar on the Polk, especially acoustic seems to be their strongest point - by far. The acoustic, and electric is very fluent, each string being hit is heard with a transparency. This is where the RT5 excells the most, it has that 'ring' to it - where it sounds very natural reproducing acoustics, like the snare - cymbal - ride - guitar, etc. The guitar is very enjoyable.
The Piano seems to be another thing the pair seems to be good at, giving off a nice wide soundstage with this - yet leaving a sense to be desired, no real depth in the keys - no real texture in it.
The soundstage is great, but its not what I am looking for. It dosnt get outside of the speakers - and it definetely dosnt have the clearness and seperation I am looking for. However, it does let me enjoy the music, of any recording quality. The Polks are so forgiving with this, which is why I am keeping them. Yet, please still read on about the Definitive.

---------------------------------- Definitive Technology BP6B
The Definitive, man what can I say. It is a very interesting piece of gear - it has its own sound. Nothing more, nothing less. I cannot exactly tell you whether or not it is better than the Polk. It honestly just depends on the recording. I have never owned a speaker that could pick apart a CD in such a way. I have NEVER heard anything like it. It has made CDs I enjoyed so much sound like complete and utter garbage. However, it is moments like this when we just smile and KNOW it is a honest speaker - whether this is what you are looking for - well that is up to you.
The performance of the highs deeply depends upon placement, height, and CD quality. There are times when it is so sibilant - that it is disturbing! Then there are times when it does a victory dance around the Polks all day long.
The soundstage is what Definitive is known for, and it definetely shows its marks against the Polks in this area. This is the closest thing that is 7 inches wide that sounds similar to SDA. It has the airy sound around the instruments, the clearness, the detail and depth of the soundstage. However, it dosnt have the width like the SDA.
The drums on the definitive have been the most controversial thing to me the past couple of days while doing my listening. Some recordings they sound like total dog mess. That is taking it lightly. Then other recordings, like in Dave Mathews (where the recording quality is superb BTW), it sounds like....drums. Actual drums in my room. They can lay out drums like no other speaker I have heard in its price range. It cuts up the drums and lays them out one by one, you just have to find the recording to show them off. Not to mention, they most definetely have depth in the soundstage. There is the singer, then behind it is the drums. I listen, and I feel there is seperation there, not just one big sound. So this definetely is appealing.
The guitar, also is something else. Much more vibrant thant he Polk. Alot more deeper as well in this area, however - the detail remains about the same. They are spectacular on the guitar.
The Piano is another thing they do similar to the Polks, but with ALOT more depth and texture. Very appealing again.
Here is where the Polks just get smacked! Clarity. My oh my! Polk, I know you are trying to appeal to the average joe, but you gotta get the clarity thing down. The Polks sounds muddied, they sound like they are trying to cover stuff up and leave it in the ball park. Man I tell you what, when a ball is pitched to me at a baseball game, I wanna knock it OUT of the park - not strike out. The Definitive leaves NOTHING behind, which is why it destroys almost every recording I have thrown at it the past couple of days.
The depth of the soundstage is another place where it smacks the Polks backwards --- The soundstage is spread out, tons of seperation - stuff goes behind you, beside you, infront of you, on top of you...the works. Completely amazing to say the least. I think this has alot to do with the Bipolar technology though. Which BTW, takes alot of placement tweaking to get to sound just right.
All in all, I am keeping the Definitives.

---------------------------------- Overall

I am keeping them both. They BOTH, excell where I want them to, and BOTH offer to the table what I want. When I throw on instrumental.......jazz.....blues....old rock..............etc etc, Definitive needs to be playing. When I throw on metal, rock - the stuff that has so-so recording. The Polks need to be playing. Which is why I am keeping them both.

However, I am going to use my current definitives as surrounds and pick up the BP10B for mains to see if they offer more to the table.

---------------------------------- Changes Made To Setup
When I started to demo, I was using the Soundcraftsmen. Lets be honest here, the Soundcraftsmen is a fine fine fine amp (which is why I just sold it on EBay) - anyway, It has no current man. It couldnt handle the 175 watt Definitive. Not even close. The 100 watt Adcom GFA-545 just stomped ALL over it during this demo. So half way through, I switched amps. Worlds difference.

Second change was, I got rid of my A/V rack. I am now just using my TV stand. Yup..

Third change, I sold my RT35i to my friend

Changes I hope to make to my rig --

Get the BP10B for mains, run the BP6B in the rear, get a larger amp for the mains -- and get a speaker switcher to switch between the Polks and Defs for different types of music.

That is my plan.

---------------------------------- Music used

Lifehouse - No Name Face
The Dave Mathews Band - Remember Two Things (EX SC)
Train - Drops Of Jupiter (EX SQ)
Everlast - (One with the song End on it)
Creed - Weathered
Tatu - 200 KM In The Wrong Lane (EX SC)
Tait
Sonicflood - Sonicpraise
TobyMac - Momentum
Dream Theater - Scenes From A Memory
Korn - Untouchables
Disturbed - Believe
Breaking Benjamin - Saturate
Brother Bear Soundtrack
Avril Lavigne - Let Go
Extreme Days Soundtrack
Phil Collins - Hits
Linkin Park - Meteora

I would have used -

Mark Schultz
Linkin Park - Reanimation

But, I couldn't find them.

[VR3]

Pictures...oh Pictures...how art thou pictures!

Left side -

Definitive, RTi70, TV stand -

[VR3]

Hmm more more pictures...how art thou pictures!

Right side, RTi70 - definitive...angle shot here! bah nah nah!

[VR3]

More more pictures! how art thou pictures!

TV stand loaded down with the gear...fo shizzle!

[VR3]

Pictures oh pictures! How art thou beloved pictures!

THe Panasonic DVD player, and the Denon DCM-280 cd player! Bah nah nah!

[VR3]

Pictures oh pictures! How art thou effin pictures!

Sansui T-9 Tuner - not plugged up
NAD 917 preamp!

[VR3]

Pictures oh pictures! How art thou pictures!

New addition, the XBOX! hahaha

[VR3]

Pictures oh pictures! How art thou pictures!

Adcom amps hidden from view when sitting down, behind the RTi70....

And if you cant tell, they ARE raised off the floor with rubber feet - about a good inch of clearance...

[VR3]

Pictures oh pictures! How art thou pictures!

The SVS in all its glory...thing is friggin huge!....

[VR3]

Pictures oh pictures! How art thou pictures!

My wire managment...Mantis take notes! LOL

Atleast you cant see the wires when you sit down except the wall outlet...

[VR3]

Pictures oh pictures! How art thou pictures!

VCR on top of the tv...probally coulda fitted it in the tv stand but I figured id put it up there....

[VR3]

No comments eh...

Ah well:o

[VR3]

:o Now I remember why I stopped doing reviews :o

[danger boy]

Trey,
your pictures look a lot better. nice going. i don't have time to read your reviews right now. but i will later.

[kingtut]

New camera Sid? Pix are better than before.

[VR3]

Same Camera....

Just...Did some light work ---- and stabilized the camera before I took the pics.

[ohskigod]

hey, is that the original Optimus Prime i see in one of those pics?

[VR3]

1982 Original! Good Eye

On top of the XBox is the 1980 original Grimlock and Slag (I believe)

And on top of the tuner is the Devastator robots (but I am missing pieces to it)

On top of the amp (on the corners) and on the corners of the TV stand (bottom) - are the Video Tape robots...

[VR3]

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm......

What camera do you guys use? and how did they cost? eh?

(Shameless bump) ;)

[dave shepard]

Originally posted by Vr3MxStyler2k3
More more pictures! how art thou pictures!

TV stand loaded down with the gear...fo shizzle!

Hey!!! what the hell is she doing? no porn on the forum!!!! :D :D

EDIT: hey where's the pic copy past didn't work?

[VR3]

Thats a POS show called Wings...lame show

I dont think you can quote a pic...might be wrong though

[organ]

Wow, I missed this post. Congrats on the new speakers. I've seen them at the store but didn't audition. They're great looking speakers.

It's nice that you find them more accurate sounding than your 70's. That IMO means a better speaker for you. You'll have to use good recordings if you want to hear good sound. A lot of my recordings aren't very good too but the good ones sounds amazing.

Have you tried pulling them farther away from the wall? I'm guessing the bi-polar design needs more room to breathe. I noticed that you really hate sibilance and it has ben a problem to you for quite some time. You should have a look at some tube pre amps on your next upgrade. They will tame sibilance and I bet they will sound great with the Def's because they're already really good at soundstaging.

So have you decided if you're keeping them or not?

Maurice

[VR3]

Well...

There is also a review in this post ;)

But yes, I plan to keep them and the Polks --

However, I hope to move the BP6B to surround position, and get the larger BP10B (dual 6.5" midbasses, and 1" tweet, uses the technology in the older TOTL, 3000TL)

The Definitives only get sibilant at higher volumes, which at that point the amp starts to also tax out.

As PJdami suggested in IM on AIM, he suggested I put rags behind the definitives to stop reflections, and the polks being beside the definitive also cut down on reflections. So the highs have calmed alot - another thing has been important is placement. I know that is a duh thing, but these speakers change totally each time you move them, even a little bit.

As for bringing them out farther - man I really wish I could! lol!
I mean if I brought them out any farther I would be ear to tweeter basically....lol.

At my Dad's house I had them about 1 foot or so away from the wall, and I honestly think they have a larger soundstage at my house then there -- but I also have alot better gear at my house to run them on.

But I have sold so much stuff this weekend...lol -- my room has been a wreck! LOL I sold my A/V rack, I sold the RT35i, and I sold the soundcraftsmen....and I think the next to go will be the Sansui Tuner...

As for a Tube anything --- I dunno, I will be keeping alot of options open as the summer progresses and I have more money to toy around with...