Advice for Frontstage

[exalted512]

I doubt many people here have heard any of these speakers...but I've posted this on every other car audio forum i know of so I'm going to try here as well.

First off let me give the background, which most of you already know...but here it goes

the truck will be a 2002 GMC full size extended cab...not quad cab
the subs will be 2 brahma12s in a .5ish ft^3 box...around 1200 watts of USAmps power going to each one

heres my predicament
i need a front stage thatll be able to keep up

my first choice of speakers is DLS Iridium 8.3s
heres a link
i cant give the exact link, but go to speakers on the left bar, then click ultimate 3-way systems on the top of the page that comes up
scroll down and youll have the 8.3s

im really kind of clueless about all this
ive been spending all weekend searching several different forums, posting questions, emailing difft. ppl, talking to people on aim...etc

scott buwalda said he prefers the 6.3s midbass over the 8.3s midbass...why? i dont know...i emailed him back but he has yet to reply...it was only a few days ago though

ive been going through a lot of stuff...looking up different sets up speakers...etc--id rather stay away from a DIY set-up...i dont have the patience to get them set up right

ive heard from several people that dls is better than similar dynaudio 3-ways, better than utopias, and better than the eurosports...ive been kind of looking at the eurosports because they can handle a good amount of power

right now as far as what im leaning towards...is the iridiums...ive heard so many great things about them...a focal dealer with utopias in his truck told me he liked iridiums better...hes a judge for iasca...that surprised the hell out of me--he said that theyre the only speakers that would "Whoop up on my utopias...even if the utopias had a better install"

the more i look at DIY systems, the more i seem to like the DLS...i dont want to go to the hassle of attenuating the speakers and match everything up...the only downfall to the iridiums is the amount of power ill be feeding them...theyre going to cost me either $650+shipping or 715...both fully authorized--i dont want to blow em...lol

theyre also relatively small

the install these will be going in is still completely open...
im looking at something like this
the install will be 100% done by me, nothing will be premade generic q-logic crap and no shop will be doing my work. i was originally thinking about putting the 3" high in the door or in the sail panel, putting the 8" in the door and the tweet in the a-pillar like shown in the link, but someone mentioned putting the 3" in the kicks...i think that will bring my sound stage incredibly low...but well see

so any advice you could give me would be fantastic:)
-Cody

[bknauss]

Scott can be a little... weird... at times. From some information that myself, Thom, and Josh have, we would probably all believe that Scott likes his 6's over the 8's because he already had an install with the 6's, and it would be extra work to add in the 8's. He's been quoted saying he didn't want to mess with a good thing (meaning his sound).

[MacLeod]

Im not real sure why you dont think the DLS cant handle power. Scott is using 150 watts to each tweeter, midrange and midbass. Thats 450 watts PER CHANNEL!

DLS like other top end speakers like Focal and MBQ will handle a lot more power than the 75 watts stated.

And as far as keeping up with 2400 watts of bass, he's running about 2475 total to his 3 subs and his billion or so SQ championships would be evidence that they keep up pretty well.

As far as which is better, my personal favorite is the MB Quart Q series. But really, when you get into the league of Utopias, Q's Dyn's and Iridiums, the only measure is which type of sound you prefer most. Kind of like comparing Ferraris to Lamborghinis.

[exalted512]

actually, a lot of people complain about Scott's lack of bass in his vehicle
bknauss,
thanks, ill keep that in mind about what you said--what forum did you say you were a moderator of?
-Cody

[MacLeod]

2400 watts = lack of bass??????????

Ive read where he has them x-over too low at 30 Hz which the midbass cant keep up with but Ive never heard he doesnt have enough bass.

[exalted512]

thats what i saw on another forum when i was searching through posts...maybe it was in a past season or something
i just say someone else mention that hes going to the 8.3s this season...so i dunno
they said that even a car audio magazine mentioned it...but i dont trust car audio magazines...
i think im just going to go with the 8.3s and hope that i get to be good at fiberglassing...lol
-Cody

[MacLeod]

Im with ya on the 8" midbass. The whole purpose of midbass speakers is to bring the bass up front and to have more umph in the 80-200 Hz range and an 8" will certainly do that better than a 6".

If you can make em fit then you should definitely go for it!

[LittleCar_w/12s]

Cody, you luck ba$tard... you have a truck, take advantage of it and put in the 8"s... well worth your time trying to fit it. (as for me, anything over 6.5's would probably cover up my brake pedal...)
I'd agree that the reason they say Scott has too little bass is that little performance gap his 6's wont cover, and his subs x-overed too low. But you can't argue over hard results.. so I guess he's got it down. If it is true that he's moving to the 8's Id follow stride.
Additionally, given the freq range of a 3", putting it in your kicks would be a disaster. If you need to build a good pillar, it's worth it. I have t4 slots in my dash (using the windshield as a reflector to aim the stage at the cabin) and it has good enough imaging that this will be the home of my new speakers there. ('tis a shame the RF t4's cracked... I expected more from RF, given they were not a new model - anyone still use t4 slots anymore??)

Hope to see it in action Cody, especially the pillar glassing. You're close enough that I'd almost want to stop by and see it done.

[exalted512]

my only problem with that is ill get the 8" and then be a horrible glasser...lol
if i do get these before x-mas--im going to a junk yard and getting 1 or 2 panels(Depending on how much they are) and practice glassing em...hell...if i do a reallly good job ill put them in my truck...lol
-Cody

[bknauss]

Originally posted by exalted512
actually, a lot of people complain about Scott's lack of bass in his vehicle
bknauss,
thanks, ill keep that in mind about what you said--what forum did you say you were a moderator of?
-Cody

-The lack of bass is simply a tuning thing. IASCA judges are known for knocking off lots of points if you can hear bass... there have been several jokes about people wanting to cut off their subs during SQ competitions since it would be about the same amount of bass the judges want.
-carsound.com

[bknauss]

Originally posted by LittleCar_w/12s

Additionally, given the freq range of a 3", putting it in your kicks would be a disaster.

Not true at all. Since they're dome mids, the angles you can put these at and still have a great off axis response is pretty amazing. I had the UP36s in my car for a couple of months, slapped the mids into the existing kick panels at nearly a 90 degree angle, and I had no problem with the mid response.

[exalted512]

scott replied:
"Hello:

Yes, I like the musicality of the 6 1/2" midbass more than the 8" midbass.
Oh, and you can take my advice with a grain of salt...I don't care much
about brand names, or who I tick off for telling everyone which I think is
the best (referencing the post on the forum you mentioned).

The 6 1/2" is a very fast, tight, transient midbass. I play mine down to 31
Hz. Yes, the 8" will product more low end repsonse, but its musicality
suffers hugely above 80 or 100 Hz. In fact, even DLS recognizes this, and
they are building a new 8" woofer to go with that set. It seems it might be
a yellow sandwich cone 8" midbass, similar to the 6.5" midbass in the
Ultimate Reference set.

If you wanted a set of these midbass, I have a set. You could purchase the
entire 8.3 set, minus the passive crossovers, with the upgraded midbass
through me for $850.00.

Scott"

now im not sure...i might want to get the 6.3s...bass will DEFINETELY NOT be a problem...so i might as well go with the 6.3s, save some money, save some install time, increase the SQ...
it wont look nearly as "cool" as an 8...but 'cool' is the last thing im going for in this
AHHHHH
-Cody

[MacLeod]

Check this out.

This is the article Mobile Entertainment did on Scott's AWESOME system in his Altima. This is my personal favorite system that Ive seen in a magazine. Its very stealth and classy. The DLS components look smooth as hell.

My 2 favorite parts are the mids in the kickpanels firing straight across the floor rather than towards the driver, and the tweets in the A-pillars. This goes against all conventional knowledge but the "Soundcheck" part of the article says it all.

The other cool as hell part, Cody will like. Water cooled amps!

[exalted512]

saw it the other day
im going to go with 6.3s and save the hassle of fabbing the doors
now i just need to come up with the $$$
-Cody

[MacLeod]

Tell me about it. I keep thinking I should just hold out and get a set of Focal Polyglass or JL XR's like I really want but then I realize I cant even come up with the $190 to get those sweet MM6's!!

It sucks working on comission. During the summer I was bringing home $700+ a week!!! Now Im back down to $400-450 a week. Not shabby but not a lot of extra either. After 3 years in the beer biz its always like this. The day after Labor Day you cant hardly GIVE beer away! :(

Oh well, there is always next summer!

At this rate Ill have one hell of a system in 3 years!

[exalted512]

ill take beer if youre giving it away!
lol
hell...around here labor is done for beer
someone even traded a boat for 20 cases of beer...lol
-Cody

[MacLeod]

I just called Crutchfield to see if theyll price match Sound Domains price on the MM6 cause I was going to apply for their credit card since mine are maxed (:D ) but I wasnt going to pay $300 when I could pay $190! They wouldnt even discuss it.

"I was wanting to know if you guys price ma...."

"No we dont."

What is the point of Crutchfield? They have the same prices as a retail store and wont come off with any bargains. Whats the point in ordering online and waiting for your stuff if it costs the same as if you went to a retail store and bought it???

[exalted512]

when i first got into car audio about 6 years ago i thought crutchfield was the ****...
then i learned of the cheaper websites...so i went to crutchfield to look...other places to shop
now....including the iridiums, my last $1500 worth of speakers have been from companies that crutchfield has probably never even heard of...lol
-Cody

[MacLeod]

My first experience with them was back in 89 when this dude gave me one of their catalogs which was all they had cause this was way before the internet. I didnt know squat about car audio and thought that frequency response was a measure of which speaker sounded best. I rememeber wanting a Pioneer 4 way 6x9 thinking it was the best cause its FR was 30KHz or so compared to the 25 KHz of the other speakers! LOL

I used to sit for hours and look thru that thing. Coming up with all kinds of different systems to go in my 86 Ford Ranger. Finally in '90 I got my first system. A Pioneer casette player, A Sony 25x2 Power Booster 5 band EQ pushing a pair of MTX wedges with 8" full range subs and piezo tweeters.

Boy, those were the days. Funny thing is I thought I had a pretty good system.

[exalted512]

I HATE CHEMISTRY!!!

[MacLeod]

Lookee here.

Talking about box coverings, this is something Ive been thinking about doing for a while now. Lowes sales this stuff as flooring. It comes in 12"x12" sheets for like 50 cents or so. Its pretty thin and you can get it to look like tiles or marble or granite. I thought this stuff would look cool as hell wrapped around a sub box, amp rack or both and had planned on using it in my install (if I ever get the money ) but wasnt sure how it would look. I think this looks awesome and this has convinced me to use it.

I dont know if this is the stuff or not but it looks the same.

Scroll down to the amp rack and sub box about 1/4 way down the page.

[exalted512]

i have a solution to your space problem big mac
click here
-Cody

[MacLeod]

LOL!

Well Im actually looking to save as much space as possible.

Ideally Id like to have my sub in the passenger side under-seat compartment and my amps in the middle with the drivers side compartment available for storage. That aint easy to do.

JL Audio has a Stealthbox for the older genration Rams that replaces the center console and allows use of a 12" sub. This would be perfect but of course they dont make that for the new gen Ram!

[exalted512]

so fab one up!
-Cody

[neomagus00]

cody - i've been mia for a bit, so this was supposed to go closer to the top, but i say you put the midranges and tweets up high - i have my mids and tweets down on the floor, and while i get great stereo, the sound sometimes seems to be emanating from the headunit itself... if you time-delay and phase-correct them properly, i'd think that the pillar locations would serve very very well... and for the love of tim, practice glassing before you go at it with the awesome speakers... :D

[Thom]

Originally posted by MacLeod
...and his billion or so SQ championships would be evidence that they keep up pretty well...

And keep in mind most of those were won with speakers other than DLS, and plenty in the future will be won with speakers other than DLS. It's less product and more installer that win shows. When you're comparing spreakers in that price range you can nit pick about this or that because one guy's car sounds "better" than another's, but keep in mind your car will be different. Scott's been quoted in articles as saying he tunes at stoplights, on his luch break, etc. He has spent more time tuning his car than the majority of people (even competitors) have spent on install and tuning combined.

I've heard Keith Doney's car (he uses DLS) and it sounds very good. DLS makes nice speakers, but there's lots of nice stuff out there...

[Josh]

Are you complimenting Buwalda?

[Thom]

Originally posted by MacLeod
Check this out.

My 2 favorite parts are the mids in the kickpanels firing straight across the floor rather than towards the driver, and the tweets in the A-pillars. This goes against all conventional knowledge but the "Soundcheck" part of the article says it all.

The other cool as hell part, Cody will like. Water cooled amps!

The mids in the kicks aiming towards each other have been pretty commonplace for years. When I was getting into this in 96 quite a few guys were doing it and the first real install in Jessica's car (and every version since) has had mids in the kicks aiming at each other. Tweets in the kicks also work well for us, better than a- pillars for the tweets we're using.

PPI did that back in '95 or '96 and Bazooka did it a few years ago. Seems like a lot of work when you could have a bit more heatsink and not have any problems. I think Scott did it strictly for points, I haven't heard anyone say their DLS amps are shutting down...

[Thom]

Originally posted by MacLeod
I just called Crutchfield to see if theyll price match Sound Domains price on the MM6 cause I was going to apply for their credit card since mine are maxed (:D ) but I wasnt going to pay $300 when I could pay $190! They wouldnt even discuss it.

"I was wanting to know if you guys price ma...."

"No we dont."

What is the point of Crutchfield? They have the same prices as a retail store and wont come off with any bargains. Whats the point in ordering online and waiting for your stuff if it costs the same as if you went to a retail store and bought it???

They sell pretty cheap when the items are about to die. Even the normal prices are a bit below retail from what I pay attention to. I buy a DVD player or something every so often because I know if I have a problem they've got the best customer service. Plus it saves me the time of going into BB and dodging the 50 requests for "extended warranties" that I "need"...

[exalted512]

you mean you dont need the extended warranties?