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  1. #1

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    Question Vinyl.... Apparantly the only way to go

    A few days ago i started a thread about the quality of copied cd's. Well to say the least i learned alot about not only the whole process of copying a cd but alot about digital audio in general and all of the short comings of it. I had always heard before that people that say vinyl is the only way to get a perfect accurate reproduction of music but i now understand why.

    After looking at how both cd/dvd audio worked i realized that technically a record will even give you better sound than any dts audio disc or sacd ever could.

    After learning that i went out and bought me a record player over the weekend as well as a few records and have been thouroughly impressed. The vinyl recordings of cd's that i know and love sound so much warmer and natural than the cd counterpart. I am definatly loving my new found discovery.

    Well anyway i guess my point is beeing extremely new to the vinyl area of music (2 days to be exact haha :) ) i wanted to hear from some of you guys that have been into vinyl for a long time some things that i definatly want to know about it. I mean anything from type of equipment, maintanence, tweaks, mods, etc etc that you have found to be sucessfull.

    Anything you guys can tell me would be greatly appreciated.

  2. #2

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    Always make sure that your stylus is in good shape. If you have a crappy stylus, you'll destroy your albums faster than you can tape a penny to the head.

    Keep your records clean, too. Dust can do bad things when that extremely pointy needle goes scratching over it.
    Ludicrous gibs!

  3. #3

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    Vinyl ahs it's problems to. Not so much in the sound reproduction but in the upkeep. Pretty good beginer article here:

    http://needleexpress.com/faq.htm

    and a completly insane cleaning article here:

    http://www.musicangle.com/feat.php?id=54

    There are other things you can do as far as tweaks go. There are record stabilizers, vibration isolation devices, tracking force gauges, catridge alignment tools, all kinds of stuff.

    My suggestions are just keep everything clean, replace your stylus every year or two and make sure your cartridge alignment, tracking force, and anti skate are setup good. Past that ;) , just kick back and enjoy the tunes.

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    Also just curious, what kind of TT did you get? And what cartridge are you running?

  5. #5

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    well spawndn72 that is the thing... over the weekend i just ran out to bestbuy and picked up ps-lx250h. An entry level sony table just to see what is all about, then decide what i wanted from there. Even at 120 bucks i have been very impressed as i said above but i have no idea what cartridge is in it.

    Should i look into a better cartridge better table or is this player a perfectly fine to use right now.

    The other question i have is, am i selling the record short by running it into a solid state amp and not a tubed one or does not not matter.

    Sorry about all the questions but i want to make sure i am getting everything thing i can out of my two channel only system.

  6. #6

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    All my experiences with vinyl have left me unimpressed to say the least. Give me a high end CD/SACD player any day.
    'Political Correctness'.........defined

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  7. #7

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    I fall firmly into both camps. I love great vinyl and great cds.

    My thoughts on great vinyl :

    Music you can't find on CD is a plus for albums.
    Old albums in great shape are rare and you will go through many to find a few. Any flaws in the album show up on a great setup.
    It is harder to get and keep a vinyl rig in top shape and unless you have the patience and skill to understand the differences that you are hearing, it may not be worth the hassle. You must have a critically trained (conditioned) ear to tell what to do when it doesn't sound just right. It certainly isn't set it and forget it.
    With that said, I can't think of a better feeling than when you hear a great album setup up properly!

    On CDs:

    Convenience,convenience, convenieince!

    The CD walks all over the album in terms of ease of use and control of play. Remote access, random play, durability,and portability all make the CD superior to vinyl for the layman or casual listener. If you can't hear the difference between the two formats, go with the CD simply for the modern converniences and durability. Getting great sound from CDs requires trial and error just like the album will since most tweaks require a higher level of purchase. Seperate Digital-to-Analog converters help to refine or change the sound as can tube preamps. The up side to seeking a nice CD rig is that once you get that dynamic combination, that just fits your senses, it is pretty much set it and forget it as it doesn't change much over time.

    In my mind:

    CDs sound great once the electronics are in order.

    Album Sound great once the analog adjustments are in order.

    If you love to tweak, you can't beat a nice analog rig!
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    There are many here that disagree with me...but I have a turntable ONLY for those albums that I can't replace with a CD (or don't care to). I have close to 200 LPs and I will not buy another one. The exception is if I were to find a stack at a garage sale for pennies each....I of course buy them and maybe keep that rare one that hasn't been reissued and sell the rest for a considerable profit to the vinylphiles.:D

    Been there...done that.

    I know I am in the minority, but for me a well recorded CD on quality gear is every bit as good as vinyl.

    And yes...I have a quality turntable...stylus....cartridge....etc....

    Of course this is JMO .
    "Just because you’re offended doesn’t mean you’re right." - Ricky Gervais

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    My dad has a double album of Eric Clapton At His best. I cannot for the life of me find it on CD, so we take very good care of those LPs :)
    Ludicrous gibs!

  10. #10

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    Vinyl.... Apparantly the only way to go
    Yup...............

    For some. Mostly, those into it. Thus hardly the only way to go. I left it behind and don't know if I'll personally ever get re-involved or not. Don't get me wrong, I've nothing against it either.

    Vinyl ahs it's problems to.
    Sure it does.

    No doubt about it, the vinyl sound is different but that doesn't automatically make it better in everyone's opinion. Its just that. An opinion. "CDs are too bright!" Sounds like another way of discribing a form of a distortion to me. "Vinyl is so warm sounding!" Sounds like another way of discribing yet another form of distortion to me.

    It's funny that this discussion has been going on for longer than some of the Forum's members have been alive...... with no end in sight. :)
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  11. #11

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    Originally posted by nadams
    My dad has a double album of Eric Clapton At His best. I cannot for the life of me find it on CD, so we take very good care of those LPs :)
    Here's a few LP's just in case, http://search.ebay.com/eric-clapton-...jsZ1QQfromZR40

    All 17 of the songs on that compilation LP are on other CD's.

    1. Bottle Of Red Wine
    2. Anyday
    3. I Looked Away
    4. Let It Rain
    5. Lonesome And A Long Way From Home
    6. Sea Of Joy
    7. Layla
    8. Blues Power
    9. Bell Bottom Blues
    10. After Midnight
    11. Keep On Growing
    12. Little wing
    13. Presence Of The Lord
    14. Why Does Love Got To Be So Sad
    15. Easy Now
    16. Slunky
    17. Key To The Highway
    'Political Correctness'.........defined

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  12. #12

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    Vinyl sounds better hands down.

    Cd's are convenient.

    I will continue to use both.
    Check your lips at the door woman. Shake your hips like battleships. Yeah, all the white girls trip when I sing at Sunday service.

  13. #13

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    Originally posted by RuSsMaN
    Vinyl sounds better hands down.

    Cd's are convenient.

    I will continue to use both.
    amen
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  14. #14

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    I prefer cassette tapes!

    Nobody argues about cassette tapes!

    The tapes that ARE worth arguing about, nobody argues about because there isn't another media that can be compared to it.
    You're just jealous 'cause the voices don't talk to you!

  15. #15
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    i think vinyl sounds WAAAAY better than the first CD's that came out.

    Anyone remember the 2disc set of Poison- Swallow This Live?
    that is the worst sound quality ever.

    However, I think that 2ch. SACD is superior to vinyl in the fact that It's clear like CD yet still retains the warm sound of vinyl.

    5.1 Sacd? even better still. Jmo

    I wasn't impressed with DVD-Audio. The REM greatest hits dvda disc sounds good- defintely better than CD- but lacks the warmth of vinyl and every single SACD I have except for Norah Jones C.A.W.M. (which we all know wasn't recorded correctly) and Journeys Greatest Hits- one of the first 2channel SACDS made.

  16. #16
    Stronzo
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    Give me a good reel-to-reel for percussion. I have yet to find a format that is even in the same class when it comes to attack and decay of drums! Definately a great experience!

    Give me Vinyl for acoustics and voices.

    For everything else, xrcd, hdcd, or sacd.

  17. #17

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    Oh man,

    Where to start on this thread. The problem with vinyl for me is in order to acheive the same level of refined sound you get with CD you have to spend a lot of money on equipment. I'm not ready to spend several thousand on a TT and decent cartridge. I've been that route and am not willing to go down that road again. I'm not trying to offend anybody in this forum, but a $200 TT w/cartridge included, going thru a receiver just shouldn't even be considerd for vinyl. To take full advantage (using that word loosley) of vinyl you have to have a really good TT and cartridge and very well designed phono section, end of story. Then you have to find your fave type of music on vinyl, and too boot most of yesterdays vinyl is crap anyways (cheaply pressed). Unless you buy form a specialty manufacturer (of which there are less than a hand full) to get heavy gram vinyl that has been cut to exacting standards. And those LP's will cost between $30-40.

    Face it vinyl has run it's course unless you are interested in very high end/finicky equipment and even higher end vinyl which is all but extinct. That's what you would need to do the acheive or better CD. Way to inconveinent for me. Yes, cd's have some problems and many of those problems can be from the way music is recorded and produced today. A modern day LP will suffer from the same crappy recording standards.

    Face it Cd's have better S/N ratio, higher dynamic range (macro & micro dynamic range) they store more information, and the convenience factor. With the right set-up (which is not a $100 5-cd changer) and the proper recording technique Cd's sound fantastic, better than LP's. If you are having problems with cd's sounding to bright, etc....look at you equipment and the music you listen to, that's where you should be directing your energy. I have some Classical cd's from a very reputable company who specializes in pristine recordings and they will blow you away. If music companies used this technique and actually cared about the music they were trying to unload on us, everyone would be much happier. I know I would. I've all but given up on buying current recorded popular music. The production values are in the toilet. THAT"S where a majority of the problem lies, not in the medium. Why can I put in a jazz cd from Dave Brubeck or Miles Davis and be blown away at how good it sounds. This stuff was recorded 20-30 years ago in some cases. Give me a Hendrix cd over Lenny Kravitz anyday for quality recording and production values. Producers/artisits/record labels don't want to take the time or spend the money to do anything worthwhile today. Get it out to the public as fast as they can just so they can move us along to the next big thing six months from now. The same would happen if we still lived in a vinyl world. As far as cd's sounding like crap, why do some people think they spend $300 on a rec. $150 on a cd player and $500 on speakers and think they are going to have this awesome sounding system. If you used the same budget for vinyl the results would be less than spectacular. Then in the same breath say oh....if I have vinyl it would sound better. Bottom line, with regards to equipment you get what you pay for, PERIOD.

    Sorry if this is a rant...It's my opinion and it's the way I feel.

    H9
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass

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  18. #18

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    Part of the reason I like vinyl is the hunt. I love to go to GW and garage sales and thrift stores and find albums for $1 a piece. The other reason I like vynil is the inconvience factor. When I listen to a LP, I usually listen to the whole thing. I have discovered alot of songs that I would have skipped over if I were listening to a cd.

    As far a SQ is concerned, I am more into the music than I am in the SQ. To me if you get to critical it just ruins the experience.

  19. #19

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    Originally posted by Spawndn72
    Part of the reason I like vinyl is the hunt. I love to go to GW and garage sales and thrift stores and find albums for $1 a piece. The other reason I like vynil is the inconvience factor. When I listen to a LP, I usually listen to the whole thing. I have discovered alot of songs that I would have skipped over if I were listening to a cd.

    As far a SQ is concerned, I am more into the music than I am in the SQ. To me if you get to critical it just ruins the experience.
    I have a great amount of nostalgia tied to vinyl. I used to pull mine out once in a great while, but it just doesn't flip my switch like it used to. I haven't listened to an LP in over 3 years. Would I enjoy rummaging through a bunch of Lp's at a garage sale/flea market...absolutely most of my youth was spent in a record shop. Not to mention most of my allowance/paper route money.:D

    H9
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass

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  20. #20

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    Originally posted by Jstas
    I prefer cassette tapes!

    Nobody argues about cassette tapes!

    The tapes that ARE worth arguing about, nobody argues about because there isn't another media that can be compared to it.
    I used to own a Nakamichi Dragon cassette deck. That deck would make near cd quality copies of cd's if using Metal type tapes. That thing was the most incredible piece of equipment I ever owned. I still miss it today. If I still had it it wouldn't get much use if any. A shame because it sounded so good. It was expensive as hell (like $2500) and you really had to know how to set it properly to make outstanding recordings. Once one got past the learning curve it was phenominal. Still doesn't sound quite as good as $2500 cd player.

    H9
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass

    Pass Aleph 30; Eastern Electric Mini Max; Adcom GDA600; MIT S3/Z Pc; SDA 1C; Squeezebox; Tubes add soul!

  21. #21

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    H9,

    Well thought out and well stated!

    How can you stand to listen to music on your Nak/Adcom/Polk
    system?:D It must be hell having to live with such middle of the road components.:D:D:D

    I know that your comments weren't at all meant to come off as elitist only "in the know" but everyone has to start their learning curve somewhere and that usually is with entry level stuff. When they know better, they buy better.

    Your take on the different sources is right on when you talk about nuances that a highly trained ear can hear on a detailed system. You nailed the required source quality and needed effort to tweak your system regardless of the source.

    I regularly call my wife into my listening room to hear what I have been working on only to be dissapointed by her not remotely capable of hearing any difference even with stark A/B comparisons. She just doesn't have the ear for it.

    In all, I enjoy all sources when they are done well.
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  22. #22

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    Originally posted by Dennis Gardner
    H9,

    Well thought out and well stated!

    How can you stand to listen to music on your Nak/Adcom/Polk
    system?:D It must be hell having to live with such middle of the road components.:D:D:D

    I know that your comments weren't at all meant to come off as elitist only "in the know" but everyone has to start their learning curve somewhere and that usually is with entry level stuff. When they know better, they buy better.

    Your take on the different sources is right on when you talk about nuances that a highly trained ear can hear on a detailed system. You nailed the required source quality and needed effort to tweak your system regardless of the source.

    I regularly call my wife into my listening room to hear what I have been working on only to be dissapointed by her not remotely capable of hearing any difference even with stark A/B comparisons. She just doesn't have the ear for it.

    In all, I enjoy all sources when they are done well.
    I know my stuff is middle of the road, no offence taken. And the learing curve can expensive for some :D In my situation if I had the $6/8/10,000 to spend on equipment I'd do it in a heart beat. Because of my experiences both listening to and selling audio in the past I know I would be exstatic. But my budget just doesn't allow it. Or I'm not willing to sacrafice much of my life style to purchase that type of equipment. My best friend is just like your wife, he can't hear much difference in anything. Me I'm a critical listener. I sit down in my sweet spot and listen with the lights off and no other distractions. Me, I've been driving myself crazy lately because I need to get to the next level and haven't been able to acheive it and sometimes I want to give it up completely if I can't have it the exact way I want it....THE DISEASE.....I know. But then I listen again and convince myself that even though by audio standards my system is middle tier stuff it sure does give me a lot of satisfaction. Would a Porsche give better satisfaction than my VW, yes, but I can't have it all :)

    I have had the privildege of hearing a few high end vinyl rigs and they sounded really good . It's just that high quality vinyl pressings are so hard to come by. And as you mentioned the tweaking and quite frankly the expense. To each their own.

    H9
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass

    Pass Aleph 30; Eastern Electric Mini Max; Adcom GDA600; MIT S3/Z Pc; SDA 1C; Squeezebox; Tubes add soul!

  23. #23

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    I have to agree with Zero...

    One of the best pieces of gear I`ve owned was a reel to reel ..
    all realy cool stuff my pop`s gave me.

    It was stolen along with all my other stuff a few years back,
    and I never could bring myself to replace it...




    yet

    :(

  24. #24

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    Originally posted by aaharvel


    Anyone remember the 2disc set of Poison- Swallow This Live?
    that is the worst sound quality ever.
    Uh........NO!!!! J.K. I have it in my car right now as a matter of fact, it really isn't that bad, my original AC/DC Black in Black is worse, but luckily, they have remastered it like 20 times since then

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    I think that vinyl CAN sound better than CD. However, average CD quality sound is better than average LP playback sound.

    The stuff that people are enjoying on vinyl were things that were recorded well. There was/is a lot of CRAP produced on vinyl just as there is on CD. So to the folks that are playing your average rock LP on a direct drive turntable and saying that it's better than CD, well, I think that there is some psycho-acoustic things going on there.

    IMO, in order to get to a level where LP is BETTER than CD, you've got to drop some SERIOUS bucks on gear.

    For me, I enjoy both formats. I generally prefer CD because it's easier. I also like the lack of suface noise.

    BDT
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    Vinyl can definately sound better than CD. My rig has some things better, some worse. Overall a wash. I have heard one which sounds better for sure but the guy had easily three times more cash in it than I do and he also has the know how to make it work. I auditioned his system when I bought a CD/DAC system from him. I have to admit I wondered why I was still buying the CD/DAC after hearing it. Maybe it was the fact that he made me pay BEFORE listening to the LP's.

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    Avantgarde horns, 300b tubes, thats the kinda crap I want... :D

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