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  1. #1

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    Default Speaker Wires ~ I'm a believer!

    To tell you the truth, some advice I take as the gospel and some I take with a grain of salt. I am sorry to say that I was taking the recommendations for sturdy speaker wire with a grain of salt. Well you can't always be right. :o

    However, I noticed that one of my FXi3's did not seem to match timbre with my other Polks. My first thought was that the placement was making it sound a bit different. When that didn't change anything, I immediately blamed it on my hearing thinking that the back speakers might not sound the same as the others to my ears. Finally I just got a wild hair and decided to check what could be different. Then I remembered. That was the only speaker whose wire runs through the ceiling and the only one that I had someone else install.

    What I discovered when I examined the speaker wire running through the ceiling was that it was about the size of a thin piece of yarn. I had never seen a wire so skinny!

    So at 92 degrees in the shade (must of been boiling in the attic), I Lugged my reluctant body up to the attic and replaced the dental floss cable with Monster Cable that I had a large spool of. Cursing, sweating, and itchy from insulation, I eventually was able to turn my stereo back on.

    What a difference! Not only does the timbre match perfectly, but everything just seems to sound better. I know...I know... One speaker wire doesn't make everything sound better, but to me, all is good in the world. :D

    So there you have it. A testimonial from a true novice. Cable does change the sound.

    I'm a believer!! Thanks again for giving me the knowledge to even check that area.
    Holydoc (Home Theatre Lover)
    __________________________________________
    Panasonic -50PX600U 50" Plasma
    Onkyo -TX-NR901 Receiver
    Oppo -Oppo 980HD Universal DVD Player
    Outlaw -770 (7x200watt) Amplifier
    PolkAudio - RTi12 (Left and Right)
    PolkAudio - CSi5 (Center)
    PolkAudio - FXi3 (Back and Surround)
    SVS - PB-12/Plus (Subwoofer)
    Bluejean Cables - Interconnects
    Logitech Harmony 880 - Remote

  2. #2

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    Default

    next stop...



    cable swap program... :D

  3. #3

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    Ok, now that you're a believer it's time to upgrade from the "M" stuff and don't forget the interconnects, very, very important.
    'Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end."

  4. #4

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    Shhhhhh.... you guys are making me poorer and poorer!

    I keep telling myself, "do not get addicted...do NOT get addicted"
    Holydoc (Home Theatre Lover)
    __________________________________________
    Panasonic -50PX600U 50" Plasma
    Onkyo -TX-NR901 Receiver
    Oppo -Oppo 980HD Universal DVD Player
    Outlaw -770 (7x200watt) Amplifier
    PolkAudio - RTi12 (Left and Right)
    PolkAudio - CSi5 (Center)
    PolkAudio - FXi3 (Back and Surround)
    SVS - PB-12/Plus (Subwoofer)
    Bluejean Cables - Interconnects
    Logitech Harmony 880 - Remote

  5. #5

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    Too late..!!

    try going from the "M" stuff, to the "other " "M" stuff..(MIt)..!!

    once you open the gates and hear what you have been missing...there`s no going back..!!


    actually, a good place to start is Signal Cable....IMHO


    www.signalcable.com

    good cable...good prices

    (mention your a forum member and get a discount)
    I believe it`s 5%
    Last edited by beardog03; 09-08-2005 at 04:11 AM.

  6. #6

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    I know most of us dislike M, but it is more for business practices rather than the fact that they make a bad product. Expensive yes, but bad not really.

    Holydoc already had the stuff & he used it. It made a big difference & he is happy with it. There is no need of him spending more money, when he already got the results he was hoping for.

    So enjoy your system Holydoc!
    Sunfire TGP III PrePro, Sunfire Cinema Grand Signature 405wpc 5 ch. Amp, Rotel RCD-1072 CDP, Onkyo TA2600 Tape Deck, Pioneer Elite 47-A DVD, Sony 32" XBR TV, Polk RTA-8T Main Speakers, Boston VR-920 Center Channel, Boston PV-600 Subwoofer, Polk DSW 400 Subwoofer, Polk FXi-3 Surround Speakers

  7. #7

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    Congrats on the upgrade!

    Although, I would like to point out that just about everyone agrees that 16 ga+ and long runs definitely hurt your sound :)
    Gallo Ref 3.1 : Bryston 4b SST : Musical fidelity CD Pre : VPI HW-19
    Gallo Ref AV, Frankengallo Ref 3, LC60i : Bryston 9b SST : Meridian 565
    Jordan JX92s : MF X-T100 : Xray v8
    Backburner:Krell KAV-300i

  8. #8

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    Unc2701,

    Probably a dumb question but does Monster cable only come in one size so that is how you know what gauge I used? Personally, I have no idea what gauge it is. I just know that it made a world of difference compared to the "dental floss" that I had already there. It was very flexible and extremely well insulated. The only two complaints that I had was that
    1) it had a plastic center running through the wires, that I could only assume was there for stiffness.
    2) The twist-on Monster cable banana clips that I had purchased separately seemed to be too large to accommodate the cable size (I placed on Radio Shack crimp clips instead)

    Though I do not currently have the cable in front of me, I believe the one I purchased was the "Monster XP® Navajo White - Compact Speaker Cable ".

    Thanks for all the input guys!
    Holydoc (Home Theatre Lover)
    __________________________________________
    Panasonic -50PX600U 50" Plasma
    Onkyo -TX-NR901 Receiver
    Oppo -Oppo 980HD Universal DVD Player
    Outlaw -770 (7x200watt) Amplifier
    PolkAudio - RTi12 (Left and Right)
    PolkAudio - CSi5 (Center)
    PolkAudio - FXi3 (Back and Surround)
    SVS - PB-12/Plus (Subwoofer)
    Bluejean Cables - Interconnects
    Logitech Harmony 880 - Remote

  9. #9

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    RUN.....RUN as fast as you can. LOL!!!

    Source: Squeezebox Touch/CIA Power Supply
    DAC: Benchmark DAC/PRE
    Linestage: Placette RVC Passive
    Power Amp: Parasound HCA-1500A
    Speakers: Harbeth Compact 7ES-3 Monitor
    Subwoofer: SVS PB12-NSD

  10. #10

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    16ga+ was referring to the "dental floss"... I don't think monster makes anything smaller than 16ga (anyone know different?)

    Anyhow, with the whole "do speaker cables matter?" debate, almost everyone can tell a difference between cables smaller than 16ga vs larger than 16ga, especially with long runs (like you'd have to your surrounds). The debate really kicks in when you talk about all these exotic, short run, very expensive cables vs an equivalent guage of a cheap cable.

    Back on topic- it sucks that installers put in such crappy cable, when it's so widely accepted that you just can't push high wattage through them- in fact, in some areas that's against code.
    Gallo Ref 3.1 : Bryston 4b SST : Musical fidelity CD Pre : VPI HW-19
    Gallo Ref AV, Frankengallo Ref 3, LC60i : Bryston 9b SST : Meridian 565
    Jordan JX92s : MF X-T100 : Xray v8
    Backburner:Krell KAV-300i

  11. #11

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    Yep, simple case of the skinny wire giving too much resistance over that long run.

    When your wire gets around 30ft, you need at least 16awg. I'm guessing you had something like 22awg.

  12. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by Holydoc
    Probably a dumb question but does Monster cable only come in one size so that is how you know what gauge I used? Personally, I have no idea what gauge it is.
    That is one of those business practices things that people were talking about earlier. Monster does not advertise the gauge of their wire. (similar to Bose not advertising the specs of their speakers) - (BTW - I think the monster cable you have is 16 guage).

    Gauge is a measure of how thick the wire is. The smaller the guage the thicker the wire. -3 gauge is twice as thick. (16gauge -3guage = 13gauge so 13guage is twice as thick as 16guage....)

    The main thing you have to worry about with speaker wire is resistance and the thicker the wire, the less resistance it has. Many people are of the belief that as long as you are at 14-16ga. you are fine for most distances.

    You can get 12guage wire pretty cheap at most home improvement stores or from Blue Jeans Cable (or other internet stores) so if you are purchasing new, I would get 12guage and not worry about it. (I would expect you can get generic 12ga. cheaper than you could get 16ga. monster cable)

    Just my thoughts. - If you are loving the way your system sounds now - enjoy it. When you get a wild hair and want to try a cheap upgrade, get some generic 12ga. wire (or even 10ga.) and see if you can hear a difference with it. I would suspect starting with 16ga wire that you will get more of a bang for your buck by getting better interconnect cables than upgrading your speaker wire though.

    Michael
    Mains.............Polk LSi15 (Cherry)
    Center............Polk LSiC (Crossover upgraded)
    Surrounds.......Polk LSi7 (Gloss Black - wood sides removed and crossovers upgraded)
    Subwoofers.....SVS 25-31 CS+ and PC+ (both 20hz tune)
    Pre\Pro...........NAD T163 (Modded with LM4562 opamps)
    Amplifier.........Cinepro 3k6 (6-channel, 500wpc@4ohms)

  13. #13

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    Although I disagree that it's just about the gauge size because it's not! I do believe that for the level of gear and purpose of use concerning Holydoc's set up, he's probably fine where he's at. However, I do think that he should at least try the Cable Swap Program for interconnects as they do make the biggest difference.
    'Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end."

  14. #14

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    Quote Originally Posted by F1nut
    for interconnects as they do make the biggest difference.

    Just don't try to measure the differences. They can only be detected by the magnificant human brain. :p

  15. #15

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    I'm making a custom set using 10ga. 105 strand silver-plated wire. Will be driving SDA SRS2. Stay tuned.
    Last edited by Polkersince85; 08-21-2006 at 09:06 PM.

  16. #16

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    F1nut,

    I am flattered by your suggestion that I join the Cable Swap Program, but I feel it will be too self-serving. I have not done this enough to have built up the "acoustical ear" that you experts have. You guys are able to listen to a system and determine if it is musical or not. The only thing I would be able to do is tell you whether a certain cable sounded better on my particular system to my particular ears. Heck I cannot even tell you if one system sounds warm or tight as compared to another. All I know is what sounds best to me. That sort of review is only beneficial if you have my system, placed in my room, with me listening to it. That would be a huge diservice to this forum.

    No, I think I will let the experts poke and prod this project to determine what is the best route to go. I will then reap the benefits of your decisions as you guys have yet to let me down. Maybe in a couple years, I can return the favor for some other newbie like myself.

    /salute
    Holydoc (Home Theatre Lover)
    __________________________________________
    Panasonic -50PX600U 50" Plasma
    Onkyo -TX-NR901 Receiver
    Oppo -Oppo 980HD Universal DVD Player
    Outlaw -770 (7x200watt) Amplifier
    PolkAudio - RTi12 (Left and Right)
    PolkAudio - CSi5 (Center)
    PolkAudio - FXi3 (Back and Surround)
    SVS - PB-12/Plus (Subwoofer)
    Bluejean Cables - Interconnects
    Logitech Harmony 880 - Remote

  17. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by Holydoc
    F1nut,

    Heck I cannot even tell you if one system . All I know is what sounds best to me. /salute
    That's all that matters. What F1 is suggesting (F1 correct me if I'm wrong) is try some different cables, a big selection which can be found in the cable swap. Try one, two, many all of them. If you think it makes your system sound better great if not great. You may be surprised in your findings. I have yet to join the cable swap, but have tried a couple different ones.

  18. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by Holydoc
    only thing I would be able to do is tell you whether a certain cable sounded better on my particular system to my particular ears.
    That is the point of the cable swap program. For the cost of shipping a few cables, you can test a number of cables (some very expensive) and determine for yourself if you like the sound of them with your gear.

    It ultimately doesn't matter what I or anyone else thinks of your system. You listen to it and you pay for it, so for your system, your opinion is all that really counts.

    Michael
    Mains.............Polk LSi15 (Cherry)
    Center............Polk LSiC (Crossover upgraded)
    Surrounds.......Polk LSi7 (Gloss Black - wood sides removed and crossovers upgraded)
    Subwoofers.....SVS 25-31 CS+ and PC+ (both 20hz tune)
    Pre\Pro...........NAD T163 (Modded with LM4562 opamps)
    Amplifier.........Cinepro 3k6 (6-channel, 500wpc@4ohms)

  19. #19
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    I don't think anyone on either side of the cable camp would disagree that having 16 ga speaker wire, especially for long runs, is a bad idea.

    Now start debating on which well made speaker wires/interconnects sound better, and you'll have a fight on your hands :)

  20. #20

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    Depending on system level, Monster cable is or not so good. Monstercable is fine for most lower to mid end systems. For theater , Monster is fine.

    Music however is where Mnster in my opnion fails or comes up short. I feel there cables lack mid range clarity. They provide plenty of bass and uncontroled highs.
    I grew out of Monster many years ago. It's a learning curve that most of us go threw.
    You can however stay with monster and get good results.

    Remember like anything in the system, it's up to the end user if the product is good enough or needs improvement. Some people actually love monstercable and there is nothing wrong with that.

    I don't think it's right to bash Monstercable. It's not for all systems but it has good results in others.

    Dan
    Dan
    My personal quest is to save to world of bad audio, one thread at a time.

  21. #21

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    Quote Originally Posted by Willow
    What F1 is suggesting (F1 correct me if I'm wrong) is try some different cables, a big selection which can be found in the cable swap. Try one, two, many all of them. If you think it makes your system sound better great if not great. You may be surprised in your findings.
    Bingo!!!
    'Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end."

  22. #22

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    So then why do some other purists swear by BNC cable, which is relatively thin? Is it the shielding?

  23. #23

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    Maybe because they don't know what they are talking about.
    'Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end."

  24. #24

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    Ode, I think you are talking about BJC (Blue Jeans Cable).

    I am not a purist by any stretch of the imagination. I just know that thier interconnects sound much better than the stuff in the box that comes with the electronics.

    It's well made and it doesn't cost an arm or a leg, which suits me just fine.
    Sunfire TGP III PrePro, Sunfire Cinema Grand Signature 405wpc 5 ch. Amp, Rotel RCD-1072 CDP, Onkyo TA2600 Tape Deck, Pioneer Elite 47-A DVD, Sony 32" XBR TV, Polk RTA-8T Main Speakers, Boston VR-920 Center Channel, Boston PV-600 Subwoofer, Polk DSW 400 Subwoofer, Polk FXi-3 Surround Speakers

  25. #25

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    I felt I had to jump in on this one. I have been fiddling with stereo equipment for the better part of thirty years and I have had all kinds of cables over the years. Good cabling is a matter of low resistance, good conductivity and excellent shielding. You would be amazed at the markups involved in so called esoteric cables that purport to bring out the rough edge of the violinists fingernail across the string. Almost all claims made take place outside the range of human hearing so why pay the money for improvements that can only be seen on a high end testing equipment. Unless you are going to use pure silver or gold wiring all type 101-102 OFHC copper of same gauges are the same. I can say this because I run a metal manufacturing company the sells these materials to several high end audio cable companies who shall remain nameless. Stick with 14 gauge and up OFHC copper stranded wire with good connectors that will not oxidize and you will be fine in 99.99% of the cases.

  26. #26

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    Quote Originally Posted by McLoki
    It ultimately doesn't matter what I or anyone else thinks of your system. You listen to it and you pay for it, so for your system, your opinion is all that really counts.

    Michael
    Great post! Its good to "hear" someone with that kind of attitude on Audio forums.

  27. #27

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    Quote Originally Posted by emcclary
    Stick with 14 gauge and up OFHC copper stranded wire with good connectors that will not oxidize and you will be fine in 99.99% of the cases.

    EMCClary,

    Thanks for the advice. The problem that I probably had was that I had "dental floss" running to my furthest speaker as compared to quality cables to my other speakers. Even with my untrained ears, you could hear a "thin forced" sound coming from that speaker with the bad wiring. I would place the stereo test tones and the tone coming from that speaker was significantly different than the others.

    Now with the new wiring, I can close my eyes (with the exception of the subwoofer) and cannot tell a difference in sound from one speaker to the next. It just sounds like you have taken a single speaker and have moved it to different locations around the room keeping the same distance from my head.

    That is what I consider a well balanced system! :)

    For you purists out there, I did order the Avia stereo tuning system from SVS to be sent along with my PB12-Plus. When my subwoofer arrives, I will ensure that everything is tuned to the best of this "newbies" abilities.
    Holydoc (Home Theatre Lover)
    __________________________________________
    Panasonic -50PX600U 50" Plasma
    Onkyo -TX-NR901 Receiver
    Oppo -Oppo 980HD Universal DVD Player
    Outlaw -770 (7x200watt) Amplifier
    PolkAudio - RTi12 (Left and Right)
    PolkAudio - CSi5 (Center)
    PolkAudio - FXi3 (Back and Surround)
    SVS - PB-12/Plus (Subwoofer)
    Bluejean Cables - Interconnects
    Logitech Harmony 880 - Remote

  28. #28

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    OK, So Jesse / F1Nut say's ok upgrade the "M" stuff so who else makes in-wall cables?

    Speakers
    Carver Amazing Fronts
    CS400i Center
    RT800i's Rears
    Sub Paradigm Servo 15

    Electronics
    Conrad Johnson PV-5 pre-amp
    Parasound Halo A23
    Pioneer 84TXSi AVR
    Pioneer 79Avi DVD
    Sony CX400 CD changer
    Panasonic 42-PX60U Plasma
    WMC Win7 32bit HD DVR



  29. #29

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    Quote Originally Posted by disneyjoe7
    OK, So Jesse / F1Nut say's ok upgrade the "M" stuff so who else makes in-wall cables?
    Blue Jeans Cable 12 white is cl3r (in wall) and 10 white is cl2 (plenum grade). Cost is .39 and .57 / foot.

    The actual cable is Belden 5000 series; the 10-gauge 5T00UP and the 12-gauge 5000UE

    I am currently running the 10 ga. cable and it sounds great. (running through a fireplace plenum)

    Michael
    Mains.............Polk LSi15 (Cherry)
    Center............Polk LSiC (Crossover upgraded)
    Surrounds.......Polk LSi7 (Gloss Black - wood sides removed and crossovers upgraded)
    Subwoofers.....SVS 25-31 CS+ and PC+ (both 20hz tune)
    Pre\Pro...........NAD T163 (Modded with LM4562 opamps)
    Amplifier.........Cinepro 3k6 (6-channel, 500wpc@4ohms)

  30. #30

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    Quote Originally Posted by emcclary
    I felt I had to jump in on this one. I have been fiddling with stereo equipment for the better part of thirty years and I have had all kinds of cables over the years. Good cabling is a matter of low resistance, good conductivity and excellent shielding. You would be amazed at the markups involved in so called esoteric cables that purport to bring out the rough edge of the violinists fingernail across the string. Almost all claims made take place outside the range of human hearing so why pay the money for improvements that can only be seen on a high end testing equipment. Unless you are going to use pure silver or gold wiring all type 101-102 OFHC copper of same gauges are the same. I can say this because I run a metal manufacturing company the sells these materials to several high end audio cable companies who shall remain nameless. Stick with 14 gauge and up OFHC copper stranded wire with good connectors that will not oxidize and you will be fine in 99.99% of the cases.
    Ah...another cable skeptic. Nothing new here that some haven't already said. What is the name of your company and what are the companies that you sell to? Without that information it is nothing more than heresay. I can sell eggs, butter, flour, etc... to 5 different people and the 5 cakes they make will probably all be different. Same with raw materials. The end result is what matters...not what they start with.

    Some claim to be able to tell the difference between cables. I believe they can. Others don't. There are many here that believe as you and many that do not. The markups, voodoo claims, testing, ears vs machines have all been discussed adnausium. Several "white knights" have come through informing us of the error of our ears and the falacy of our preconceived desire to hear a differece in wire and cables. Rather than blindly listen to the proponents or nay-sayers, we have a cable swap program here at the forum with various speaker cables, interconnects, and power cords from inexpensive to relatively high dollar. Costs almost nothing to check them out and form one's own opinion. Anyone that takes YOUR advice or MY advice when they have an opportunity to form their own opinion...are (as Micah Cohen would say) nothing more than sheeple.

    I notice you are relatively new here. Welcome. Knowledgable people are always a plus to the fourm. Your 30 years experience with hifi is more than many...less than others. Discussion is great...opinions are too... Hang around, share your thoughts and expeience....just don't lecture or preach.
    "Just because you’re offended doesn’t mean you’re right." - Ricky Gervais

    "For those who believe, no proof is necessary. For those who don't believe, no proof is possible." - Stuart Chase

    "Consistency requires you to be as ignorant today as you were a year ago." - Bernard Berenson

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