which AVR do you think would work best?

[MrNightly]

Been doing some searching, and wanted some input...

I want to get a receiver that will get me started in my HT setup. It obviously isn't going to be a flagship receiver, but something that will push the mains (Rti8's or 10's) along with a SVS sub, surrounds and center. I can't decide if i should spend half on the 785 and get an amp for the mains, or try the 3805 and wait a little bit on the amp.

What do you think? Remember, i'm not limited to Denon solely, just that they seem to have the best options/for the price. My room will be about 24' X 16'.

Denon 3805 ($650 refurbed)
Denon AVR785S ($250 refurbed)

Are there any others you think would be better? Any and all opinions are welcome!!

[cmy330go]

At those prices I would heavily recommend the 3805. It will do a respectable job of driving your speakers, offers better quality video switching, and will give you more room for growth.

If you eventually plan on adding an amp regardless of the receiver you get that will open up a world of possibilities. Personally I like yamahas as pre/pros. They seem to have more customizable features for the money.

Just $0.02 worth.

[Dennis Gardner]

I agree, Denon and Yamaha receivers make some of the best pre-pros out there, too bad they are shooting for good receivers. :D

[MrNightly]

At those prices I would heavily recommend the 3805. It will do a respectable job of driving your speakers, offers better quality video switching, and will give you more room for growth.

If you eventually plan on adding an amp regardless of the receiver you get that will open up a world of possibilities. Personally I like yamahas as pre/pros. They seem to have more customizable features for the money.

Just $0.02 worth.

It was recommended that instead of the 3805 i pick up the Denon AVR-985S for about $200 cheaper. I was advised that the 985 is very similar to the 3805 without the fancy remote, but the 985S had a mic with it, to get the speakers sounding the best. What do you think about this advise?

[cmy330go]

It was recommended that instead of the 3805 i pick up the Denon AVR-985S for about $200 cheaper. I was advised that the 985 is very similar to the 3805 without the fancy remote, but the 985S had a mic with it, to get the speakers sounding the best. What do you think about this advise?

That would make a fine preamp/processor. I didn't mention it earlier 'cause I wasn't certain it was an option. It is very nice that the mic is included. And I'm all about getting the standard remote. The 3805 remote looks cool but IMO is a pain in the butt.

[MrNightly]

That would make a fine preamp/processor. I didn't mention it earlier 'cause I wasn't certain it was an option. It is very nice that the mic is included. And I'm all about getting the standard remote. The 3805 remote looks cool but IMO is a pain in the butt.

Cool. Ya i'm always open for options. I believe i am going to pick up that one this weekend.

BTW: please tell me your name refers to the Bmw... i love that car.. tho my M3 (someday soon..........) kicks it's ass!!! ;)

[cmy330go]

Cool. Ya i'm always open for options. I believe i am going to pick up that one this weekend.

BTW: please tell me your name refers to the Bmw... i love that car.. tho my M3 (someday soon..........) kicks it's ass!!! ;)

Sure does! I think you're the first person to catch that, or at least say anything about it.

:( Unfortunately I don't have the car anymore. I traded it on a Lexus GS430. I really loved the BMW, but just couldn't deal with the crappy Bimmer dealer in my area anymore . I could go on for days about how bad they SUCK! I just hope someday they will go under new management so that I can justify buying another one. Don't get me wrong the Lexus is a nice car, but NOTHING drives like a bimmer.

[bassaholic]

I have a denon 3805 for sale in the flea market. Take a look. I might beable to save you some of cash.

[MrNightly]

Sure does! I think you're the first person to catch that, or at least say anything about it.

:( Unfortunately I don't have the car anymore. I traded it on a Lexus GS430. I really loved the BMW, but just couldn't deal with the crappy Bimmer dealer in my area anymore . I could go on for days about how bad they SUCK! I just hope someday they will go under new management so that I can justify buying another one. Don't get me wrong the Lexus is a nice car, but NOTHING drives like a bimmer.

That is true. Used to drive my brother in law's 85 325... loved it!! Can't afford the M3 right now, but hands down, the best vehicle BMW makes (IMO) ;) and they just look sweet! We have some Excellent dealers here in Kansas... worth the move i'd say, for the car ;)

Lexus huh... not even gonna go there. :p

[MrNightly]

I have a denon 3805 for sale in the flea market. Take a look. I might beable to save you some of cash.

I have a guy willing to sell me a NEW one for $650 today on ebay. Here's my question for you.

Should i settle for the 985S for $440 or
the 3805 for $650?

I know we've talked about this before... but what would you do if you were starting out again? I'm about to pull the trigger on the 985s refurbed. Great price, and looks like it's handle my needs for the moment.

Thanks!

[reeltrouble1]

I would not buy a receiver, I just would of started with seperates.

RT1

[MrNightly]

I would not buy a receiver, I just would of started with seperates.

RT1

Ok. what seperates? give me a model and price, so i can compare. I'm driving rti10's, csi5, and svs sub. will add fx3's for rears.

[okiepolkie]

A couple of questions before I give suggestions on a pre/pro:

What processing power do you NEED?
Will you be using the pre/pro for video as well(upconversion to component or whatever).

If are not going to use it for video upconversion, I would look into a used Outlaw 950 pre/pro and a used outlaw 7100 amp. This will put it a little over the thousand dollar range, but it would be worth it. The amp would be much better for your speakers than the Denon. Plus, if you ever need to upgrade, you can still use the amplifier and just upgrade pre/pro's.

If you are going to use it for upconversion, I would suggest looking into a new/used Outlaw 990 pre/pre. They are more expensive, a little over a thousand, but this would also be worth the money.

Have you already bought your speakers?

If not, just get the front set for now and spend more on the separates.
Buy the svs and surrounds later when you have saved up more $$$.

Also, if you do want the RTi8's and CSi5 my brother bought, it could save you some money.

Hope this helps.

Zach

BTW, go here to view the amp and pre/pro: www.outlawaudio.com

Also, I just looked at Audiogon and you can get a outlaw 755 amp for about the same price as the 7100. The 755 is only 5 channels, but it has more watts per channel, and you can never have too many good, clean, high powered watts :D .

[MrNightly]

A couple of questions before I give suggestions on a pre/pro:

What processing power do you NEED?
Will you be using the pre/pro for video as well(upconversion to component or whatever).

If are not going to use it for video upconversion, I would look into a used Outlaw 950 pre/pro and a used outlaw 7100 amp. This will put it a little over the thousand dollar range, but it would be worth it. The amp would be much better for your speakers than the Denon. Plus, if you ever need to upgrade, you can still use the amplifier and just upgrade pre/pro's.

If you are going to use it for upconversion, I would suggest looking into a new/used Outlaw 990 pre/pre. They are more expensive, a little over a thousand, but this would also be worth the money.

Have you already bought your speakers?

If not, just get the front set for now and spend more on the separates.
Buy the svs and surrounds later when you have saved up more $$$.

Also, if you do want the RTi8's and CSi5 my brother bought, it could save you some money.

Hope this helps.

Zach

BTW, go here to view the amp and pre/pro: www.outlawaudio.com

Also, I just looked at Audiogon and you can get a outlaw 755 amp for about the same price as the 7100. The 755 is only 5 channels, but it has more watts per channel, and you can never have too many good, clean, high powered watts :D .

wow... apparently i don't know much about audio yet. when you mentioned seperates, i assumed something entirely different. So let me set this straight: i won't need a receiver/amp to push dvd's/music into my speakers, just a "seperate amp?" Obviously seperate cost more money... but would it be that much different in listening to music and watching Dvd's??

i haven't bought the speakers yet, though'd i'd start with something to push them first. Power wise, i need something that will be used for HT mostly, in a fairly average room 16 x 24 with music on the side. i'd love to hook up my PC as well, if that would be possible. Is a seperate going to accomplish this for me (990 Outlaw)?

Forgive this next question, i'm new... but what does this "Seperate amp from Outlaw" have to offer that a Denon AVR doesn't? Not trying to be smart, just don't know. it appeared to have most of the standard features a Denon AVR had, but of course that is through my novice eyes.

if you have time to answer a bunch of questions, i'd love to hear your response. thanks in advance ;) (Does everybody hate new guys with their q's? :p)

[okiepolkie]

A receiver is the comination of a preamplifier/processor, tuner, and amplifier. "Separates" separate the preamplier/processor, and sometimes the tuner into its own box. Then the amplifier is placed in its own box.
Higher quality components are usually used in these separated boxes.
There are several benefits from using this logic. One of the main reasons, besides the quality components, is that it cuts down on the inherent crosstalk among interal components associated within most receivers. You end up paying higher prices for the preamplifier/processor(outlaw 990) and a separate amplifier(like the 7100).

This is a basic comparison. There are probably others that can expound on this more.

[cfrizz]

Having a separate amplifier also means that your speakers are getting much more power out to them then a receiver can give them. Therefore, they will sound better.

100 watts from a receiver is NOT equal to 100 watts from an amplifier.

Also regardless of what other upgrades you make, you can keep the amplifier through all of them!

You have lots of options, you can get the 3805 now & run everything & save for an Outlaw 755 to add to it later. Or you can get an Outlaw 950/990/w/755.

Figure out what your needs are now, but also figure out what your future needs will be. Figure out the maximum amount of money you want to spend in the future & then look at all of the different options that will get you the closest to your future goal, and start building from there.

[cfrizz]

Here is an excellent writeup on the benefits of separate amplification!

Here is the corrected link.

http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?t=33040

[MrNightly]

You have lots of options, you can get the 3805 now & run everything & save for an Outlaw 755 to add to it later. Or you can get an Outlaw 950/990/w/755.

Figure out what your needs are now, but also figure out what your future needs will be. Figure out the maximum amount of money you want to spend in the future & then look at all of the different options that will get you the closest to your future goal, and start building from there.

Thanks for taking the time to reply. I spent some time looking at the Outlaw 990, and it does indeed look impressive. I think for myself though, it would be almost overkill. I can't imagine that i'll need that much power for a simple HT setup, 7.1 or 5.1. I believe it would be in my best interest to purchase the 3805 (or similar receiver, which BTW do any of them in particular let you connect a PC to them? I'm not even sure what that would be called??) and see how i enjoy that. If needbe, in the near future, I can always pick up an amp to push the mains/sub/center for a reasonable price.

I appreciate the help thus far, you guys are great.

[Dennis Gardner]

Your PC can hook into any receiver through either a digital input or by the more common analog connections. This is all dependent on your computer's soundcard options.

The Denon is a top quality component and you shouldn't feel as though you are compromising at all by purchasing it. The Denon is used by hundreds of HT fans as the main processor in their audio/video chain. It will serve you well as a receiver and later can still be a good quality preamp.

[MrNightly]

Your PC can hook into any receiver through either a digital input or by the more common analog connections. This is all dependent on your computer's soundcard options.

The Denon is a top quality component and you shouldn't feel as though you are compromising at all by purchasing it. The Denon is used by hundreds of HT fans as the main processor in their audio/video chain. It will serve you well as a receiver and later can still be a good quality preamp.

Thanks for that word. I appreciate it. Here's a final question...

How does the Onkyo TX-NR901 compare to the Denon 3805? Has anyone ever done a side by side comparison, or have first hand knowledge of these two? Or are they even in the same league?

[Dennis Gardner]

The Onkyo has net radio, but other than that feature, the Denon is better is most areas. The 901 was reviewed last year by Sound & Vision and their test model only delivered 50 WPC of the claimed 110 WPC. One of the worst amps they have measured in a receiver.

Read the chart here:S&V Chart

You do need to remember that bench racing models of any electronics without actually listening to each model will not give you a complete experience of the components.

You listen to music, not watts or distortion, and watch movies not resolution.

[cmy330go]

The Onkyo has net radio, but other than that feature, the Denon is better is most areas. The 901 was reviewed last year by Sound & Vision and their test model only delivered 50 WPC of the claimed 110 WPC. One of the worst amps they have measured in a receiver.

Read the chart here:S&V Chart

You do need to remember that bench racing models of any electronics without actually listening to each model will not give you a complete experience of the components.

You listen to music, not watts or distortion, and watch movies not resolution.

What Dennis is saying here is DEAD ON! You cannot get the full experience from stats in a magazine.

I would just like to add that from my experience Onkyo's quality control can be very hit and miss. It seems that some of there receivers can be pretty solid. Yet others can be nightmares. Once again IMO you are better off with either Denon or Yamaha.

BTW. Props for your efforts to build a good HT system. It is so frustrating watching people buy POS HT in a box systems.

[cfrizz]

There is no such thing as overkill!!! I used to think the same way, but guess what? I was wrong. I remember when I got my first pc, I thought, I'll never use all this space, I don't need that much memory, ect. I had to go through 4 pc's before I got a clue & actually purchased more than I needed at the time. It certainly has come in handy since. I don't expect to have to upgrade for years!

The same holds true for audio equipment! If I knew then what I know now I would have gotten some different equipment & would have been all set. As it is, I'm just waiting & saving my pennies so that I can get a 5 channel amp in place of my 2 channel & monoblock.

I didn't know that such powerful amps could make such a big difference in what I hear. Now I do, hence in time I will upgrade.

So don't be afraid or hesitant to get more than what you THINK you need now, trust me, later on down the line you WILL want more & you will already have it.

Thanks for taking the time to reply. I spent some time looking at the Outlaw 990, and it does indeed look impressive. I think for myself though, it would be almost overkill. I can't imagine that i'll need that much power for a simple HT setup, 7.1 or 5.1. I believe it would be in my best interest to purchase the 3805 (or similar receiver, which BTW do any of them in particular let you connect a PC to them? I'm not even sure what that would be called??) and see how i enjoy that. If needbe, in the near future, I can always pick up an amp to push the mains/sub/center for a reasonable price.

I appreciate the help thus far, you guys are great.

[reeltrouble1]

MrNightly,

Whichever Japanese receiver you get, it will be pot luck as to the build quality. There is no "better" only different features, yes, they sound a bit different but not better, just different. There are levels in audio and spending 500.00 gets you to a certain level, spending 1000.00 to another and so on up the ladder. These folks manufacture thousands and thousands of these receivers, they dont listen to each one, how could they? If you think the Outlaw is overkill, then get the one you like. I support them all and realize their limitations.

BTW, if you are going to listen to HT at anywhere near reference level you will need all that power.

RT1

[MrNightly]

There is no such thing as overkill!!!

Ahh common man... this is killing me!!! I was settled that the Outlaw was just too much for me. And now you throw this out here. :) Making me start the entire thinking process over. Way to go.. and you guys call yourself helpful? :p

Your analogy of the computer hit home. I remember thinking the exact same thoughts. Now look at me... P4 3.6, with 2gig memory... unheard of. But now that is simply what i need!

I guess since i've never owned a HT system.. I just am trying to think what will get the best sound, without blowing the bank, (Or the wife :)) but i hear ya...

Answer me this: What is the huge difference, other than price, in purchasing a Denon/yahama/whatever receiver an adding an amp down the road for the mains, the center, the sub, whichever you want more power to? and purchasing a pre/pro and an amp? Is the pre/pro that much better than a receiver acting as a pre/pro? Have i lost ya?

Ok, i lied, it wasn't my final question.

David

[cfrizz]

LOL! Hi David.

Ok some people will swear by a separate amp & pre-pro, others won't. I think that the quality of receivers vs pre-pro are getting so close (at least in the mid-fi range) that you really would be hard pressed to hear a difference.

Separate pre-pros don't get upgraded all that often, so by the time you get one, a few months later a new whatever comes out & your behind again. So whatever pre-pro you get, you'd better make sure that you will be content with it for quite awhile no matter what new format comes out.

Now with a receiver, you will have all the latest bells & whistles. However, you won't have all the power you need to make your system sound its best. Hence the separate amp.

If you have an audio store near you that carries both separates & receivers, go in and check out both. See if the difference in sound is worth the extra money that you will spend on separates vs receiver.

I would love an all Rotel set up, but I can't afford it. But I think I have gotten pretty damn close with my receiver & amps. At least enough that I can live very happily with it.

Cathy

[reeltrouble1]

Well, our good friend Cathy (Cfrizz) has given you something to think about

The big difference between a dedicated pre/pre and a receiver is quality throughout. The pre/pro is designed to do just that process a signal. If you get a receiver it has to process and amplify. You STILL have the amps in it which means heat on the circuits (a bad thing) their may very well be more of or in some cases a great deal of non-discreet circuitry for video/audio compared to a dedicated pre/pro and yes pre/pro's do have better overall tonal quality, especially with music at least that is where I hear a huge difference.

I started much like yourself, an HT buff, not to long after I was totally hooked on 2 ch music, hey I still love my movies and enjoy them every weekend. The moral of my story, get seperates. But then its just my story. I would however, like you to be the beneficiary of it. Now I still use a receiver as my pre/pro and it does the job, but that is because I am cheap and now more into 2 ch. The receiver stays till it busts, then I guarantee I will be getting a seperate pre/pro, likely a B&K.

RT1

[MrNightly]

The moral of my story, get seperates. But then its just my story. I would however, like you to be the beneficiary of it.

RT1

Trust me, it was a moving story.. I know, i know... in my heart, the right thing to do (And this is without even comparing the Seperate to Receiver in person) would be to pick up the Outlaw. But i can't justify to my better half how we are paying twice the amount of money on a "receiver" when the Denon would accomplish exactly what we want and need, for half the cost.

Maybe when i grow up, i'll be able to upgrade. At least this way, it'll give me something to aim for right? ;) Right.

Everyone's advise has been throughly taken and looked into. As my wife was saying the other day, "Geez, you waste enough time researching everything, we could have had a system here and been enjoying it for weeks if you weren't so thorough." Oh well... Maybe when i am old enough, she'll let me spend more money... maybe.

As of now, i'm selling one of my two houses... when it finally sells, i will be pulling the trigger on the system. Wish me luck.

~david

[Dennis Gardner]

The Denon receiver with any RTi-6 or above with an SVS sub will be a great place to start. With the preamp outputs, you can add amps at anytime to fill your room better. All of us here on the forum have gone through the $$$painful$$$ upgrade process and thus try to help newer members avoid that route when it faces them.

I personally started my surround venture with a Polk sub/satellite setup and cheap receiver with a 27 inch CRT and found my way up to bookshelfs, then towers, separate amps, and front projection all within a year or so of my initial purchase. Each upgrade component screamed for another.

If you haven't made your way around KC to listen to some systems, you owe it to your wife and yourself to take time to see what fits your wants and needs. Strictly shopping through the net for the best price will ultimately cost you more down the road.


Just my .02 and I wish you good luck,

DG

[cfrizz]

Let us know what you end up getting.