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  1. #1

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    Question Another "Musical Sub" Thread!

    Well, I recently upgraded from my h/k AVR147 to a NAD T754. The 147 was an outstanding entry level receiver, especially for Home Theater, when matched with an Acoustech H100 subwoofer. The NAD seems to be deceptively powerful and adds a LOT of tighter bass from the RT55 (x4) and CS400 (x1) speakers, but now the low end bass is too sloppy in comparison, and I have found myself lowering my crossover to 40Hz to avoid the sloppiness, when really, for my speakers, it should remain at 60Hz (or even 80Hz).

    Anyway, I've decided I probably need a better subwoofer for music, and that seems to mean a sealed unit is preferable. I don't need better than the H100 for movies, but I need tighter low end bass for music listening. I've looked at HSU, at the same time as Rythmik, and some others. Here are the choices I saw, and why I have not bought one yet:

    - HSU VTF3. Very big enclosure, at 20x20 on the front end, but it is supposed to be very musical. Still, with shipping, about $700 for the plain ugly black version. $900 shipped for the nicer wood veneer versions.

    - Rythmik 12" kit. Probably about $600 with shipping, and no cabinet for that price! Almost $1,000 with shipping for the full version (with a cabinet).

    - SVS. The only smaller profile sub is a 10" model. Probably not the one anybody would recommend, and it's vented.

    - Epik Valor. It's out of stock, so no news on when it would actually arrive.

    - av123. What looks like a great new model that is coming out for $400, but no news on availability, and it's vented again.

    - Finally, there's the Fry's deal on the Polk PSW1000, which I've never seen recommended here, but the specifications look decent enough, with two 10" drivers and a nice cabinet.

    That probably about sums it up! Could the Polk pull it off for less than $450 (with store pick-up)? I mean, would the movie performance be equal the H100, but the music performance be significantly better? It is not a sealed sub so it seems less than perfect, but the cabinet is probably very nice. Do I need to just bite the bullet on one of these and pretend that money doesn't matter? Any additional considerations?

    http://www.hsuresearch.com/products/vtf-3-mk3.html
    http://www.rythmikaudio.com/DS1200ci.html
    https://svsound.com/products-sub-box-10nsd.cfm
    http://www.epiksubwoofers.com/ValorSpecifications.html
    http://av123.com/component/option,co...133/Itemid,37/
    http://www.polkaudio.com/homeaudio/s...idual/psw1000/

    Forgot this for the full cabinet version of the Rythmik 12":
    http://www.rythmikaudio.com/F12SE.html
    Last edited by Kex; 11-08-2008 at 12:37 AM. Reason: Forgot a linky!

  2. #2

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    VMPS

    And look no further

    Low compliance drivers
    Push Pull
    Passive Radiator
    Nice thick enclosures

    And god do they sound good....

    And they dig DEEP and boy do they get loud..
    www.Vr3Mods.com ///// www.Version3Audio.com

    "No, that's silly talk. Dude, you can't possibly be this audio dumb so quit the act." - Doro

  3. #3

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vr3MxStyler2k3 View Post
    VMPS

    And look no further
    ...
    Do you mean these guys? http://www.vmpsaudio.com/subwoofers.htm

  4. #4

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    Yep

    The dedicated sub is in your price range...

    I can dual Largers for a while and they smoked my Dad's SVS Ultra as far as accuracy and texture goes...

    Output at 20hz is surreal as well...
    www.Vr3Mods.com ///// www.Version3Audio.com

    "No, that's silly talk. Dude, you can't possibly be this audio dumb so quit the act." - Doro

  5. #5

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vr3MxStyler2k3 View Post
    Yep

    The dedicated sub is in your price range...

    I can dual Largers for a while and they smoked my Dad's SVS Ultra as far as accuracy and texture goes...

    Output at 20hz is surreal as well...
    They even have a couple of reps in my area ... this might be a winner ... I'll try and arrange an audition if possible!

  6. #6

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    They use 12awg monster wire internally

  7. #7

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    Any of the subs on your list will get you quite an improvement. Probably the most musical is the Rythmik kit, but I think the Valor is the better deal. It's a 4-5 week wait, but musical, hits hard, extends and has great output for a budget sealed sub.

    Combo rig:

    Onkyo NR1007 pre-pro, Carver TFM 45(fronts), Carver TFM 35 (surrounds)
    SDA 1C, CS400i, SDA 2B
    PB13Ultra RO
    BW Silvers
    Oppo BDP-83SE

  8. #8

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    Quote Originally Posted by leroyjr1 View Post
    They use 12awg monster wire internally
    Yeah ... I saw that too and forgot to mention it ... it's kinda scary from a marketing point of view, and tarnishes the mystique somewhat ...

  9. #9

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Temple View Post
    Any of the subs on your list will get you quite an improvement. ...
    Were you including the PSW1000 in that comment Ron? It's $399 + 8.25% CA tax at the moment. Free store pick-up (but no store returns if it doesn't work out, which is why I didn't just get it to try out).

    Where are the specifications on the Epik Valor? I couldn't find any on that "specs" page (just dimensions etc.).

  10. #10

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    After listening to the DSW MicroPro subs at Polkfest...They are very musical and will be my next sub.
    "Just because you’re offended doesn’t mean you’re right." - Ricky Gervais

    "For those who believe, no proof is necessary. For those who don't believe, no proof is possible." - Stuart Chase

    "Consistency requires you to be as ignorant today as you were a year ago." - Bernard Berenson

  11. #11

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    They actually stopped using Monster. They now use Analysis Plus
    www.Vr3Mods.com ///// www.Version3Audio.com

    "No, that's silly talk. Dude, you can't possibly be this audio dumb so quit the act." - Doro

  12. #12

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    REL.

    Both very musical and adept at HT.
    2 Channel -
    Martin Logan Spire, 2 JL Audio F112 subs
    McIntosh C1000 Controller with Tube pre amp, 2 MC501 amplifiers, MD1K Transport & DAC, MR-88 Tuner
    WireWorld Eclipse 6.0 speaker wire and jumpers, Eclipse 5^2 Squared Balanced IC's. Silver Eclipse PCs (5)
    Symposium Rollerblocks 2+ (16)Black Diamond Racing Mk 3 pits (8)

  13. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Temple View Post
    Any of the subs on your list will get you quite an improvement. Probably the most musical is the Rythmik kit, but I think the Valor is the better deal. It's a 4-5 week wait, but musical, hits hard, extends and has great output for a budget sealed sub.
    I'm about 3 weeks into my wait for a Valor.... I'll post up some pics and an eval once I get it.

    Nothing but good comments across other forums about the Valor!

    H9: If you don't trust what you are hearing, then maybe you need to be less invested in a hobby which all the pleasure comes from listening to music.

  14. #14

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kex View Post
    Were you including the PSW1000 in that comment Ron? It's $399 + 8.25% CA tax at the moment. Free store pick-up (but no store returns if it doesn't work out, which is why I didn't just get it to try out).

    Where are the specifications on the Epik Valor? I couldn't find any on that "specs" page (just dimensions etc.).
    oops...no I didn't mean the PSW1000. I haven't heard it. I've heard the Hsu, most SVS models and the Rythmik. I'm sure the Polk sub is the best of the previous rev and better than the Bic, however, my recommendations are based on the following logic.

    The Valor will get you flat to 18hz, ave SPL between 20-63hz is 109dbs, 2 meters/goundplane. A friend replaced 2 PB10s with the Valor. Subjectively, the same output, but not close in SQ. The sealed 15 is much more articulate and kicks with quite a punch. The Rythmik Servo 12 is extremely musical, but lags behind in output.

    I'd tell you to audition the Polk, but the price doesn't look that attractive to me without a return policy.

    Combo rig:

    Onkyo NR1007 pre-pro, Carver TFM 45(fronts), Carver TFM 35 (surrounds)
    SDA 1C, CS400i, SDA 2B
    PB13Ultra RO
    BW Silvers
    Oppo BDP-83SE

  15. #15

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    Check out the Velodyne SPL series...I was so darn impressed with my SPL-1200R that I had to go & order another one. Fantastic sub for both 2 channel & HT. Fast, musical & seemless integration with my mains.
    "2 Channel & 11.2 HT "
    Panny 65" 3D Plasma
    Yamaha AVENTAGE RX-A3010 AVR
    D>SONIC M2-600M mono's / mains
    Rotel RMB-1095 / 5 channel amp
    Rotel RMB-1075 / 5 channel amp
    TEAC UD - 501 DAC
    Oppo BDP-93
    SONOS System
    KEF Q900 / mains
    KEF Q600 / center
    KEF Q800 / surrounds
    KEF Q100 / rear surr.
    Def Tech ProMonitor 1000 / front & rear presence
    Velodyne SPL-1200R subs / dual pair
    DSPeaker Anti-Mode 8033 sub EQ
    Equitech Balanced Power Son of Q 1.5R
    Extensive room treatments

  16. #16

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    I've grown to like REL as well. Even their entry level, T3, is a very musical sub. They are interesting, since they have a high level in, and speaker in that are used simultaneously to create a more uniform presence.

  17. #17

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    +1 on the Velodyne SPL-1200R. Audioadvisor.com has greal deals on them right now
    MAIN: Polk Lsi9s; Polk PSW505; Lsic (in box); Onkyo SR-875; Parasound 2250; Cambridge Audio 740C; LG BD370
    OFFICE: Polk Lsi7; REL T3; HK 3490; CA 840W; Onkyo C-S5VL
    BENCHED: CS20; OWM3s

  18. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by pearsall001 View Post
    Check out the Velodyne SPL series...I was so darn impressed with my SPL-1200R that I had to go & order another one. Fantastic sub for both 2 channel & HT. Fast, musical & seemless integration with my mains.
    x10!!! Velodyne Rules. M&K pushpulls ain't too shabby.

    I love mine for music mainly but it's fine for HT unless you have a 5000sq ft media room.

    Saw one like mine for sale for $250 in San Diego awhile back...

    http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volum...subwoofer.html

    Front fire, transmission line, 18db/24db line level all electronic XO.

    The CT-150 has all the bells and whistles the smaller models didn't.

    Grab a Vel if ya can.

    Paul
    Last edited by Polksaladanni; 11-08-2008 at 09:11 PM.

  19. #19

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    The VMPS Subs are amazing. Hard to find...but worth every penny.
    Romans 1:16

  20. #20

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    Question Rythmik Audio: F12 or F12G

    Looking at the Rythmik option, I notice there is an F12 and F12G, "with the GR Research driver". The GR version has a treated paper driver and foam surround, instead of a black or silver anodized aluminium driver with rubber surround. The rest of the specifications seem to be identical. There's a link on the website, comparing the two, but it seems to be broken (404 error).

    http://www.rythmikaudio.com/F12_specs.html
    http://www.rythmikaudio.com/F12G_specs.html

    Any ideas on a preference for one or the other? I thought foam surrounds did not last so well over time ...

  21. #21

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kex View Post
    Looking at the Rythmik option, I notice there is an F12 and F12G, "with the GR Research driver". The GR version has a treated paper driver and foam surround, instead of a black or silver anodized aluminium driver with rubber surround. The rest of the specifications seem to be identical. There's a link on the website, comparing the two, but it seems to be broken (404 error).

    http://www.rythmikaudio.com/F12_specs.html
    http://www.rythmikaudio.com/F12G_specs.html

    Any ideas on a preference for one or the other? I thought foam surrounds did not last so well over time ...
    I noticed that too. I talked to Brian today about something else and we did discuss the fact that he offers the GR driver. GR uses Rythmik servo and non servo amps for their own kit versions too. Other than that GR's is doped paper and Brian uses aluminum, the parameters are fairly close. You'd have to speak with Brian to address SQ, I didn't ask.

    Combo rig:

    Onkyo NR1007 pre-pro, Carver TFM 45(fronts), Carver TFM 35 (surrounds)
    SDA 1C, CS400i, SDA 2B
    PB13Ultra RO
    BW Silvers
    Oppo BDP-83SE

  22. #22

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    Default Too Late!

    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Temple View Post
    I noticed that too. I talked to Brian today about something else and we did discuss the fact that he offers the GR driver. GR uses Rythmik servo and non servo amps for their own kit versions too. Other than that GR's is doped paper and Brian uses aluminum, the parameters are fairly close. You'd have to speak with Brian to address SQ, I didn't ask.
    Well, I'ld love to know the answer, 'coz our very own Nikolas spotted a F12G for sale on Audiogon, and I just bought it ... I think ... Oops! Ron, if you talk to him again, maybe you could ask him the question (I'm too shy to cold call, attempt to sound friendly and nice, introduce myself, and then ask probing questions without falling asleep on the phone in the middle of the technical answer!), and you seem to be in touch regularly, so obviously suffer from none of the above limitations in your character ...

  23. #23

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kex View Post
    Well, I'ld love to know the answer, 'coz our very own Nikolas spotted a F12G for sale on Audiogon, and I just bought it ... I think ... Oops! Ron, if you talk to him again, maybe you could ask him the question (I'm too shy to cold call, attempt to sound friendly and nice, introduce myself, and then ask probing questions without falling asleep on the phone in the middle of the technical answer!), and you seem to be in touch regularly, so obviously suffer from none of the above limitations in your character ...
    Sure, I'll give him a call. BTW, I heard the GR non-servo kit with a 12" PR. It was a very nice sub, flat to 20hz and powerful. In fact I bought the box sans driver/PR/amp and added a Rythmik/GR-PR and SVS Plus driver. fredv owns it now, but it was my favorite sub after the Ultra. Whichever driver he uses, Rythmik makes good stuff...audiophile SQ and very good performance. You're going to be very pleased.

    Combo rig:

    Onkyo NR1007 pre-pro, Carver TFM 45(fronts), Carver TFM 35 (surrounds)
    SDA 1C, CS400i, SDA 2B
    PB13Ultra RO
    BW Silvers
    Oppo BDP-83SE

  24. #24

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Temple View Post
    Sure, I'll give him a call. BTW, I heard the GR non-servo kit with a 12" PR. It was a very nice sub, flat to 20hz and powerful. In fact I bought the box sans driver/PR/amp and added a Rythmik/GR-PR and SVS Plus driver. fredv owns it now, but it was my favorite sub after the Ultra. Whichever driver he uses, Rythmik makes good stuff...audiophile SQ and very good performance. You're going to be very pleased.
    Thanks for reassuring me Ron ... I got it for $500, including shipping and PayPal fees, so it seems like a pretty good deal compared to the PSW1000, which would have been about $450 total and most likely not as good, if probably a nicer cabinet. Condition was described as 10/10 and just two months old.

  25. #25

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kex View Post
    Thanks for reassuring me Ron ... I got it for $500, including shipping and PayPal fees, so it seems like a pretty good deal compared to the PSW1000, which would have been about $450 total and most likely not as good, if probably a nicer cabinet. Condition was described as 10/10 and just two months old.
    I think it's a great solution for you. It's going to be a much better value than 2X that Bic. You can't make it sound bad and for tight, defined bass I doubt you can do better.

    Combo rig:

    Onkyo NR1007 pre-pro, Carver TFM 45(fronts), Carver TFM 35 (surrounds)
    SDA 1C, CS400i, SDA 2B
    PB13Ultra RO
    BW Silvers
    Oppo BDP-83SE

  26. #26

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    My vote is for the Epik Valor, hands down. 350W, 15" sealed, and VERY musical.

    The wait shouldn't be that long. I ordered mine September 23 and it arrived November 10.

    I have mine connected to an Outlaw RR2150 in a living room 25' x 15' and open to a dining room 15' x 13'. This thing goes deep. I've never heard string bass sound so rich before in my entire life.

    I have Polk Monitor 70s about 15' apart on one end of the room and the sub underneath one of the Polks in the corner. This sub really fills the room and seamlessly integrates into the overall sound.

    I moved my old sub, a 12" Velodyne into a 13' x 13' bedroom where it does an adequate job alongside Polk Monitor 60s powered by an HK3490. But the two subs are like night and day, no comparison.

  27. #27

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    If you go to the AV123 forum you will find "craigsub" rankings that show the Valor is the best bang for the price range. It equals the performance of many subs that cost twice as much, and nothing within 150$ can come close to touching it.

  28. #28

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    Default Size Matters!

    Quote Originally Posted by rru2s View Post
    If you go to the AV123 forum you will find "craigsub" rankings that show the Valor is the best bang for the price range. It equals the performance of many subs that cost twice as much, and nothing within 150$ can come close to touching it.
    Yup, it looks like a very good contender, and it would only have been about $100 or so more than my "used" item, depending on how much they charge for shipping, but it is quite a bit bigger than the 12" Rythmik, which also influenced my choice (other than several weeks extra wait time). With the Rythmik, it should fit right into my space where the H100 is sitting for the moment.

    - Epik Valor = 22H x 16.5W x 21D inches (22D with grill).
    - Rythmik F12G = 15.75" (H) x 15.75"(W) x 17"(D) - (18.5" D with grille).
    - Acoustech H100 = 17" H x 15" W x 18.25" D .

  29. #29

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    Default Late Night, Almost Immediate, Customer Service

    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Temple View Post
    I noticed that too. I talked to Brian today about something else and we did discuss the fact that he offers the GR driver. GR uses Rythmik servo and non servo amps for their own kit versions too. Other than that GR's is doped paper and Brian uses aluminum, the parameters are fairly close. You'd have to speak with Brian to address SQ, I didn't ask.
    Amazing c/s BTW! I sent an e-mail from their website "contact" page asking about warranty transfer last night, and got an answer back from Brian himself asking for a link to the listing on Audiogon. He checked the listing and e-mailed me back late last night to say the warranty was in order and could be transfered! I only just bought it yesterday, hours beforehand, and it hasn't even shipped! Awesome IMO!

    I think the H100 will be going to a good home too, BTW, but more on that later!

  30. #30

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kex View Post
    Amazing c/s BTW! I sent an e-mail from their website "contact" page asking about warranty transfer last night, and got an answer back from Brian himself asking for a link to the listing on Audiogon. He checked the listing and e-mailed me back late last night to say the warranty was in order and could be transfered! I only just bought it yesterday, hours beforehand, and it hasn't even shipped! Awesome IMO!

    I think the H100 will be going to a good home too, BTW, but more on that later!



    How awesome is that!!

    That makes the deal even sweeter!! I didn't even think about a warranty being transfered over.

    Cool Beans.



    Nick

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