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  1. #1

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    Default Another Amp question...

    As most of you guys know I'm looking to add a amplifier to my existing system. I've been looking really hard into the Outlaw gear as most here have but know I've tossed around the idea of not only purchasing a amplifier but also purchase the Outlaw 990 preamp/processor. Here is the question at hand, could someone please explain to me what the benefits of using a BALANCED connection from the pre/pro to the amplifier compaired to just using analog interconnects would be. The reason for asking is I can possibly save $300 by purchasing the new 7200 which does not have balanced inputs. Second question is would I really notice a difference by purchasing a seperate amplifier and pre/pro. Thanks a million guys.
    Money Talks, Mine says Goodbye Rob!!!!
    "My Theater Room"

  2. #2

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    Balanced
    In audio, the opposite of Unbalanced. For us balanced refers to a type of AC electrical signal having two "legs" independent of ground. One is generally considered positive (+) and the other negative (-) in voltage and current flow with respect to ground. Unlike unbalanced audio lines there is no "signal" carried in the shield or ground connection unless there is a fault. The main benefit is that any noise that gets induced into the line will be common to both the positive and negative sides and thus canceled when it arrives at its destination, assuming the destination is balanced. This phenomenon is called "Common Mode Rejection" and basically just means that any signals common to both the positive and negative legs of balanced lines get canceled. This happens because when the receiving device looks at the signal the common noise actually shows up as out of phase with itself, and gets cancelled. Balanced lines are generally much better for long cable runs due to their ability to reject induced noises. XLR and TRS type cables are designed to transmit balanced audio from one balanced device to another.

    Save yourself $300 and opt for unbalanced. IMO, the money is better spent elsewhere like on some great IC's. Balanced is really only worth the extra money if you are running long runs of cable for your signal.

    H9
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass

    Pass Aleph 30; Eastern Electric Mini Max; Adcom GDA600; MIT S3/Z Pc; SDA 1C; Squeezebox; Tubes add soul!

  3. #3

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    Yes Grim, you will definately notice a difference going to separates! But get the amp first, that will probably make the biggest difference!
    Sunfire TGP III PrePro, Sunfire Cinema Grand Signature 405wpc 5 ch. Amp, Rotel RCD-1072 CDP, Onkyo TA2600 Tape Deck, Pioneer Elite 47-A DVD, Sony 32" XBR TV, Polk RTA-8T Main Speakers, Boston VR-920 Center Channel, Boston PV-600 Subwoofer, Polk DSW 400 Subwoofer, Polk FXi-3 Surround Speakers

  4. #4

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grimster74
    Second question is would I really notice a difference by purchasing a seperate amplifier and pre/pro. Thanks a million guys.
    Hell, yeah.

    Is it worth the extra dough? I dunno. Consider it a luxury, not a necessity.
    HT/2-channel Rig: Sony 50 LCD TV; Toshiba HD-A2 DVD player; Emotiva LMC-1 pre/pro; Rogue Audio M-120 monoblocks (modded); Placette RVC; Emotiva LPA-1 amp; Bada HD-22 tube CDP (modded); VMPS Tower II SE (fronts); DIY Clearwave Dynamic 4CC (center); Wharfedale Opus Tri-Surrounds (rear); and VMPS 215 sub

    "God grooves with tubes."

  5. #5

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    I wouldn't loose any sleep over it but it sure would be nice if you had the choice to try both connections on the same equipment. Would I pay more? Probably not much.
    madmax
    Vinyl, the final frontier...

    Avantgarde horns, 300b tubes, thats the kinda crap I want... :D

  6. #6

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    I think the Outlaw 990/amp combo is one nice deal. Would make a noticeable improvement. BTW, That's one kick ass room you have! It's just begging for seperates.:D

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    To answer the 2nd part of your question. Seperates all the way and don't look back. The difference will be amazing even if you only do occasional critical listening.

    So to recap:

    Balanced inputs not neccesary and not worth the $300 extra

    Seperates YES and take some of the $300 and purchase some good inter connects and speaker wire.

    H9
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass

    Pass Aleph 30; Eastern Electric Mini Max; Adcom GDA600; MIT S3/Z Pc; SDA 1C; Squeezebox; Tubes add soul!

  8. #8

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    Okay, is there any other combos in the same price range I should look into or is this the best bang for your buck going right now?
    Money Talks, Mine says Goodbye Rob!!!!
    "My Theater Room"

  9. #9

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    Well fella forum members, I have finally made my decision. Next week I will be ordering the 990/7700 combo from Outlaw audio. This has been something I've been wanting to do for quite some time but just wasn't sure if I was ready to take the seperates plunge. I'm going to order the balanced connections from Signal cable (not that much more in price over the standard analog) and do a side by side compairason. Looking forward to throwing some serious power to the RTi's, hopefully it will bring some new life into them. I do however have a question about the surrounds which are the RTi28's and the FXi30's. Is a true 200 watts going to blow them when they are rated at 125 watts. I've always heard it is better to over power them then to under power them but is this going to be the case here? Man, I can not wait. It's like a whole new make over.
    Money Talks, Mine says Goodbye Rob!!!!
    "My Theater Room"

  10. #10

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    You will absolutely love that combo! Congrats.
    Sharp Elite 70
    Anthem D2V 3D
    Parasound 5250
    Parasound HCA 1000 A
    Parasound HCA 1000
    Oppo BDP 95
    Von Schweikert VR4 Jr R/L Fronts
    Von Schweikert LCR 4 Center
    Totem Mask Surrounds X4
    Hsu ULS-15 Quad Drive Subwoofers
    Sony PS3
    Squeezebox Touch

    Polk Atrium 7s on the patio just to keep my foot in the door.

  11. #11

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    Id also like some input on the outlaw pre's ... if you do the compare thing.. not much lacks in the 970 versus the 990.. is it worth that much more to get the 990, ( next possible upgrade) 970 or 990 that is..
    MY HT RIG:
    Sherwood p-965
    Sherwood sd871 dvd
    Rotel 1075 amp x5
    LSI15 mains
    LsiC center
    LSIfx surround backs
    Lsi7 side surrounds
    SVS pb12/plus2


    2 Channel Rig:

    nad 1020 Pre-amp
    Rotel 1080 stereo amp
    Polk sda 2B
    kenwood grunt Tuner
    realistic lab 450 TT
    Signal cable IC

  12. #12

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    I my opinion faster you would probaly be better off saving some money and getting the 970 due to the fact that the 7125 doesn't even have the balanced inputs.
    Money Talks, Mine says Goodbye Rob!!!!
    "My Theater Room"

  13. #13

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    Grim-
    Way to go dude. Yes, waiting is pure torture. Let us know how it sounds when you get it all rollin'.
    E-Dog

  14. #14

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    Great choice on the 7700 and sure that 990 is a great pre, but are you sure that you want to shell out that kind of money on a new pre-amp with all the new formats that will be coming out soon hdmi 1.3, DD+ , DD true HD, DTS HD, just to name a few. Might be some thing you want to think about.
    Casey

  15. #15

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    Quote Originally Posted by millerman 3732
    Great choice on the 7700 and sure that 990 is a great pre, but are you sure that you want to shell out that kind of money on a new pre-amp with all the new formats that will be coming out soon hdmi 1.3, DD+ , DD true HD, DTS HD, just to name a few. Might be some thing you want to think about.
    I'm glad you asked that question Millerman. I just e-mailed Outlaw audio asking pretty much the same question. These are the two questions I asked...

    1) Does Outlaw Audio plan in the near future to release a new pre/pro including the new surround formats already included?

    2) And if not, does Outlaw Audio plan on a software update somewhere in the future that will include the ability to decode the new formats?

    As soon as I hear something, I will pose the results.
    Money Talks, Mine says Goodbye Rob!!!!
    "My Theater Room"

  16. #16

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    I hope you have better luck with Outlaw than I did with HK, not that there is any thing wrong with the HK, anyway here is the deal I got my HK635 in December I think I payed right at $900 for and I loved it, now fast foward to April I picked up the Toshibe HD-A1 with the surround formats, guess what the HK won't decode them it converts DD+ down to DTS which isn't so bad I guess, the point is that I had a 4 month old receiver/pre-amp that won't decode the new formats, so I called HK after they wouldn't return 3 emails that I sent them about software updates that would help decode the new stuff and they told me that there would not be any such updates that if I wanted to get the new formats I would have to buy one of the new model when they came out.
    Casey

  17. #17

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    so when are the new formats coming out ? and what companies will offer these first.. I will stick with my 3803 for awhile if this is the case.. I want it to hold me 3-4 years min for this upgrade..
    MY HT RIG:
    Sherwood p-965
    Sherwood sd871 dvd
    Rotel 1075 amp x5
    LSI15 mains
    LsiC center
    LSIfx surround backs
    Lsi7 side surrounds
    SVS pb12/plus2


    2 Channel Rig:

    nad 1020 Pre-amp
    Rotel 1080 stereo amp
    Polk sda 2B
    kenwood grunt Tuner
    realistic lab 450 TT
    Signal cable IC

  18. #18

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    In the world of HT format changes, you can't wait for the next change to happen, only 300 extended 6/7.1 DVDs are avaliable from the 20,000 DVDs on the market today. The change to extended formats hasn't really happened, going on 4 years now..................go with the most amp/pre-pro you can afford today and enjoy your great room today. The Rti 28s and FXi30s will be fine with the extra power if filtered around the 80 hz mark.

    Nice upgrade choices.
    Last edited by Dennis Gardner; 07-14-2006 at 11:46 AM.

  19. #19

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    Okay, here is the response I received from Scott from Outlaw Audio..

    "While we will eventually offer a new model, we do not have any plans to do so in the near future. In the meantime, newer formats will need to be decoded in the player and passed to the Model 990's 7.1 direct input for full resolution playback through your speaker system."

    Thanks and regards,

    Scott
    Money Talks, Mine says Goodbye Rob!!!!
    "My Theater Room"

  20. #20

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    Congrats! I can't wait to read your impressions of your new system!
    Sunfire TGP III PrePro, Sunfire Cinema Grand Signature 405wpc 5 ch. Amp, Rotel RCD-1072 CDP, Onkyo TA2600 Tape Deck, Pioneer Elite 47-A DVD, Sony 32" XBR TV, Polk RTA-8T Main Speakers, Boston VR-920 Center Channel, Boston PV-600 Subwoofer, Polk DSW 400 Subwoofer, Polk FXi-3 Surround Speakers

  21. #21

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    This decision is driving me crazy. I just need to stop re-thinking things and pull the trigger I guess. Here is the problem, without a doubt I will be pulling the trigger to order the Outlaw 7700 amplifier, just not sure about the 990. I guess I've gotten used to all the extra's that Denon includes with their receivers and I'm just not sure if I'm ready to loose that or not. Granted, I hardly, if every use any of these extras, surrond modes, eq settings, etc. but they are there if I ever do decide to mess with them. Anybody on the Polk forum using the 990 that went threw what I going threw that could shed a little light on what made you change your mind to purchase the 990. If I order the 990/7700 combo I will save $300, but if I order the combo and decide I don't like the pre/pro I have to pay to have it shipped back. I'm so damn confused. Any and all help would be greatly appreciated guys and gals.
    Money Talks, Mine says Goodbye Rob!!!!
    "My Theater Room"

  22. #22

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    Since features and not $$$ is the driving decision, I would go ahead and order the pair and demo the Denon against the Outlaw and then make your decision which pairs with the new amp better. A couple months of really cool playing around will decide the one that gets shelf rights in your HT and you will have no regrets, since you then know which one is better and the $$$ saved on the pair will allow you to come out okay on the resale of the loser.

    Just remember that Denon's preamp outputs are lower voltage than some and may not drive the 770 to its limits.

  23. #23

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grimster74
    This decision is driving me crazy. I just need to stop re-thinking things and pull the trigger I guess.
    Anybody on the Polk forum using the 990 that went threw what I going threw that could shed a little light on what made you change your mind to purchase the 990.
    I went thru sort of the same thing. I was going from a receiver to a pre amp.. and i knew i wanted the 990. I already had the amps.. so that made my decision easier. it's a great pre amp.. some people are dissin it because it doesn't have HDMI, which wasn't a concern in my case. I don't even use the DVI on it either. I use all component video.

    The 990 has tons of inputs and outputs. you'll never use em all :D and like you said.. you can always return it if you don't like it. but something tells me you will. the Outlaw Audio 990 doesn't have ANY DSP modes.. it doesn't need them. they sound bad anyways.

    take the leap and order the combo. the $$ you'll save is a decent amount of savings. Take your wife to a nice dinner or weekend at the resort with all that money you'll be savin'.

    good luck. now order that combo. :p
    PolkFest 2012, who's going>?
    Vancouver, Canada Sept 30th, 2012 - Madonna concert

  24. #24

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    Okay, I'm just going to stop second guessing myself and place the order for both the 990 and the 7700 next week. Hopefully my new 12.3 SVS Plus replacement drivers will be in about the same time and I'll have a whole new H/T room again.
    Money Talks, Mine says Goodbye Rob!!!!
    "My Theater Room"

  25. #25

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grimster74
    In the meantime, newer formats will need to be decoded in the player and passed to the Model 990's 7.1 direct input for full resolution playback through your speaker system.
    The problem with that is the new HD formats will only be available through HDMI 1.3, not in analog IIRC.

    I think one forum member is selling Sherwood prepro, worth a look at least. If you have AVR with preouts, get a separate amp first and wait for a prepro with HDMI 1.3 if that is of importance to you.

  26. #26

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    Sami, thats only the case with audio I beleive. As long as the player has a built-in decoder you can still pass the audio threw the 7.1 analog inputs. I don't plan on buying a new player for quite some time, at least until the prices come down.
    Money Talks, Mine says Goodbye Rob!!!!
    "My Theater Room"

  27. #27

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grimster74
    Sami, thats only the case with audio I beleive. As long as the player has a built-in decoder you can still pass the audio threw the 7.1 analog inputs.
    Yes, HD audio. For HD DTS and DD+, or whatever they are called, you need HDMI 1.3 as analog is not supported.

  28. #28

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    Oh, I see. Thanks.
    Money Talks, Mine says Goodbye Rob!!!!
    "My Theater Room"

  29. #29

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    I'm probaly going to go ahead and get the pre/pro now and when the HDMI 1.3 version finally starts being released into the new receivers and pre/pro's I'll just sell it and buy a new one like I usually do.
    Money Talks, Mine says Goodbye Rob!!!!
    "My Theater Room"

  30. #30

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sami
    Yes, HD audio. For HD DTS and DD+, or whatever they are called, you need HDMI 1.3 as analog is not supported.
    My Toshiba HD DVD will play DD+ out through analog outputs, and if the HD DVD or BLU-RAY players onboard decoder is sending the decoded signal via analog out puts why do you need the HDMI signal since its already been decoded in the player itself. shouldn't you only need HDMI 1.3 if you want to let your pre amp or receiver do the decoding?
    Last edited by millerman 3732; 07-18-2006 at 05:11 PM.
    Casey

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