Need Cable help, yikes

[Jack from Indo]

I need help picking some patch cables. Somebody please clue me in.

My installer is trying to sell me expensive patch cables. Where do you draw the line? The one's he recommends cost $150 for 5 meters (15 ft). I read the blurb on them in the brochure, sounds like a buncha B.S. to me. All kinds of technical mumbo jumbo about how good the wire is, and this: Allow 48 hours to "burn in"?

I'm having a very hard time believing this will make any difference at all.

Comments?

[engtaz]

monoprice.com has good prices on cables. no affi

engtaz

[Jack from Indo]

Thanks engtaz, but what I need to know is where does the BS start and the truth leave off regarding cable.

[pentavolvo]

when i worked at circuit city we were always supposed to sell the 150 dollar RCA cables etc. You wanna know what we all used in our own cars the cheap ass 20 dollars ones and never a problem.

[engtaz]

The monoprice cable premium cable have the monster cable type connector ( better fit and finish) and 22AWG Cable cable. The prices are good.

engtaz

[exalted512]

www.knukonceptz.com
-Cody

[PolkThug]

I use all Stinger RCA's in my car I got off ebay, I don't think I paid more than $12 for any single run. They have multiple shielding, etc, and the small connectors fit nicely under the Polk amp covers.

[ben62670]

It all depends on your system. If you have a high resolution system then cables can make a huge difference. On a cheaper system they might not make much difference at all.

[Toxis]

Your system is only as good as it's weakest link. If you have cheap ass cables, than upgrading amps and speakers will only take you so far. If it's your amps that are the cheapest part, then high end cables are not necessarily needed.

I plan on going with some nice Stingers personally... but it all depends on what I can find. :D

[MacLeod]

Expensive cables are the biggest scam in audio next to magic power cables. The only thing you want out of your cables is good construction, good connection and good noise rejection. THATS IT! Forget all the "tighter bass", "wider soundstage" and other claims. Those are not characteristics of cables.

Look up Streetwires, Stinger, JL Audio and Tsunami and get their cheapest twisted, unshielded pair and thats all you need.

[Jack from Indo]

LOL, I knew I could count on you to chime in McLeod, hahahaha.

[Toxis]

uuuuuhhhhh hold on tiger. Now I understand it's more EQing, speaker placement and driver design in a car but to say cables can't help sound stage and tighter bass? Wait till you get nose deep in home audio. Again, car is different but yes, even power cables (in home audio) makes a difference. I will argue that with you till I'm blue in the face. Car I doubt so much though but still COULD do some improvements.

[Jstas]

UGH! Cable arguments.

You can't change the laws of physics. That's all I'll say concerning that.


As far as cables go, several good and very affordable cable companies have already been mentioned.

Personally I have used Streetwires almost exclusivly with great success. Back in my early days with competition, I was using Sound Quest and Esoteric Audio which went out of bidness. There is another Esoteric Audio but it's not the same company. I've also used Scosche which is pretty much the same stuff as Stinger I found out. Scosche is a manufacturer that makes stuff to spec for other companies. Kinda like Vifa, Dynavox, Morel and so on who have large capacity manufacturing capabilities that they sell to smaller companies to build speakers in quantities the smaller company can't support.


That said, what to look for is simple. Good, quality jacketing. You want to have a urethane jacketing because it is chemically inert and won't degrade under typical weather conditions in a car. It also doesn't deteriorate when in contact with typical automotive chemicals (except battery acid, that stuff will eat through anything except glass and certain plastics) like fuel, oil and anti-freeze (ethylene-glycol which is actually quite corrosive).

Sheilding is good provided the sheilding is grounded otherwise it doesn't do anything except make the wire stiffer and harder to get around a tight bend. Grounding can be through a 3rd wire that gets screwed to a tap on the amp or it can be tied in to the ground point in the end connector.

You want good, solid ends. For example, the cheap plastic ones on things like the old Radio Shack gray cables will just bend and flex and it will weaken connections which introduce noise. The newer Radio Shack gold series is better alternative. Especially since the ends are gold plated and the ground connections are made through machined, gold plated screw terminals.

Gold plating is a BIG plus. It doesn't corrode and it's easy to clean if something like a soda spills on it.

Some ends have beefier structure with gold plating on the connector only. That is fine too. Most of Streetwires ends are powder coated or ceramic coated which is also good for insulation.


Some of the more fancy features are things like capacitors. They can be wired in line with one of the leads to filter out a typical electrical circuit resonance. In DC power, it can be variable so I'll use AC as an example. Most houses have a 60 Hz cycle on the power lines. This is the frequency at which the power runs through the power lines. It sometimes manifests itself in the audio equipment as a hum or a resonance. It's picked up from the amp power source in a poorly designed power circuit or inadequate power supply leads (i.e.: too small of a guage for power wire). However, in cars, 12V DC is a much more persistent and volatile environment and the EM fields can be much stronger because amperage is much higher than in a home. So what those capacitors do is they help filter out that intereference. Not many companies are making them anymore but some are. If you can find old Streetwires ZeroNoise 5.0 cables, they have them and alot of people regarded them as probably the best cables you could get on the market at the time.

Other nice options are wire looms which help protect the cable and keep it from getting cut accidentally. There are also rubber boots to cover the connections at the amp and head unit to keep dirt and grime out.

These options are not necessary for good performance but they do help.

[mwh9]

Listen to Mac, what he said. If you still want to spend the extra money, I'm sure I've got something around here that is pointless. Notice that I didn't say useless, just pointless.

[PoweredByDodge]

... i will solve this very easily.

A 'good balance' of quality cable and 'valid' cost are as follows:

- Streetwires Zero Noise 3.5 (old yellow series)
- Streetwires Zero Noise 3 (newer series)
- Esoteric Audio A3 (green)
- Stinger Dream Series (older model)
- Stinger Helix Series

For a 15 foot (5 meter) length of a 2 channel RCA, you should spend roughly 50 to 75 dollars (retail) or 25 to 50 (online / used / on sale)

[MacLeod]

uuuuuhhhhh hold on tiger. Now I understand it's more EQing, speaker placement and driver design in a car but to say cables can't help sound stage and tighter bass? Wait till you get nose deep in home audio. Again, car is different but yes, even power cables (in home audio) makes a difference. I will argue that with you till I'm blue in the face. Car I doubt so much though but still COULD do some improvements.

Why would you want a cable that colored the sound? The signal coming from the source unit is ruler flat from 20-20KHz. In order to make "tighter bass" or "clearer highs" it would have to change the frequency response. Why would you want a cable that did that?? Do the wires connecting the battery to the flash light bulb affect the color of the bulb??

I suppose if you used cables with enough internal resistance that it could change the sound but only by rolling off the top most frequencies by 2-3 db. But you could attain the exact same effect by using an EQ and saving $500 on cables.

And I dont accept the "cars are different" argument. I can sit in my car and hear the difference in .05 ms of time delay or a 1 db boost in 2.5 Hz. The only difference in car and home audio is the venues.

The $50 extension cords are laughable! Just think about it. The power comes from the nuclear plant or dam thru miles and miles of low bidder cables running thru switching boxes, massive transformers and other thing then enters your house where it goes thru another maze or wires, fuse boxes and then to the outlet. Then it runs thru the $100 magic cable, then into the amp where it travels thru another maze of cheap, thin wiring. So out of the entire path of the current, maybe .01% is running thru magic power cables. The other 99.9% of the path, its running thru cheap, low bidder, low-fi wiring. How can that .01% possibly make a difference?

But most of all, how can it make a difference when the AC voltage running thru the magic cord is TURNED INTO DC VOLTAGE INSIDE THE AMP before it ever amplifys anything???

[exalted512]

oh no you did not
-Cody

[Toxis]

Why would you want a cable that colored the sound? The signal coming from the source unit is ruler flat from 20-20KHz. In order to make "tighter bass" or "clearer highs" it would have to change the frequency response. Why would you want a cable that did that?? Do the wires connecting the battery to the flash light bulb affect the color of the bulb??

So you're saying a cheap cable gives ruler flat response. Never. Do the wires of the battery to the flash light bulb affect the color of the bulb? Could. Could change the resistance therefore not creating the full light spectrum to be displayed and give it a slightly different hue. But to say that a speaker and amp combo (since there IS more to it than just a wire from power cable/battery to the speaker) is like a light bulb is a bad analogy.

I suppose if you used cables with enough internal resistance that it could change the sound but only by rolling off the top most frequencies by 2-3 db. But you could attain the exact same effect by using an EQ and saving $500 on cables.

at no given point did I ever say that an EQ doesn't work better than quality cables. But again, in home audio EQs are rarely used anymore and can't be used properly in a HT without going extremely high end which no one on here has.

The $50 extension cords are laughable! Just think about it. The power comes from the nuclear plant or dam thru miles and miles of low bidder cables running thru switching boxes, massive transformers and other thing then enters your house where it goes thru another maze or wires, fuse boxes and then to the outlet. Then it runs thru the $100 magic cable, then into the amp where it travels thru another maze of cheap, thin wiring. So out of the entire path of the current, maybe .01% is running thru magic power cables. The other 99.9% of the path, its running thru cheap, low bidder, low-fi wiring. How can that .01% possibly make a difference?

So you're saying that speaker wires don't matter either. The signal has to go allllll the way through the circuit board of the HU, down a cable (which wal-mart cables are apparently as good as Stinger Helix), alllllll the way through the amplifer's circuit board and then to the speaker wire. So why have quality cable there? Might as well just terminate some old lamp cord and call it a day because you're EQ (yet another step in the signal path) will fix any disturbances. Now I know I'm talking about speaker cable while you're talking about a power cable in a home amp but regardless, if the power has resistance for that last 6 feet of wire before hitting your amp's power supply, resistance is resistance and we all know that resistance can and will color sound. If you have distorted power coming in, that distortion will carry into the sound of that amplifier. Mac, I have nothing but mad respect for you when it comes to the mobile audio side of things but you still have a lot to learn about audio as a whole. I know this because I thought I knew a lot when I was a car only buff but it wasn't until I got head deep into home audio and all of it's anomalies that do change sound.

But most of all, how can it make a difference when the AC voltage running thru the magic cord is TURNED INTO DC VOLTAGE INSIDE THE AMP before it ever amplifys anything???

Wait so you're saying that amplifiers put out DC voltage? uuuuuuuhhhhhhh My speakers go in and out. No DC voltage here.

[Jack from Indo]

au·di·o·phile (ô'dē-ə-fīl)

"An audiophile is a person who strives for high-fidelity sound, regardless of whether they are chasing imaginary problems. - Wikipedia"


DEAR MAGIC CABLE PEOPLE:

You Pro-magic cable people are going to have to explain to me the numerous blind hearing test studies done, formal and informal, that show nobody can tell the difference. Just search the net for them. They all conclude that those who most ardently say they can tell, when it comes right down to a real blind test, even on their very own equipment, can't.

I would be happy and deeply respectful of your ideas if some of you can point me to a blind listening test that shows you CAN. Honest, I'm open minded. Go ahead, post away.

[Jstas]

WHEEEEEE!!!!! The cable argument has reared it's ugly head here too!

[exalted512]

Pyschoacoustics at its best.
-Cody

[Jack from Indo]

I started this thread. So far, the guys with the best arguments are Poweredbydodge, McLeod, and jstas.

Audio Brethren: You can't argue your point by merely saying:

"Doesn't make a difference? You gotta be kidding, of course it does!"

Lots of anecdotal tests being discussed on the net, where guys who swore they could, when actually tested, could not. I can't find even one test where somebody actually could. Let's see some evidence that u can.

A lot of this sounds more like prenatal psychological issues with the umbilical cord or something, being subconsciously transferred to audio cables.:p

[MacLeod]

So you're saying a cheap cable gives ruler flat response. Never. Do the wires of the battery to the flash light bulb affect the color of the bulb? Could. Could change the resistance therefore not creating the full light spectrum to be displayed and give it a slightly different hue. But to say that a speaker and amp combo (since there IS more to it than just a wire from power cable/battery to the speaker) is like a light bulb is a bad analogy.

Yeah. The bare bones cables from Radio Shack will transmit its input signal completley transparant. The only difference would be induced noise. But tonally will be identical to any other cable. And the battery analogy is right. If the wires have an insane amount of resistance they will make the light darker. A cable with an insane amount of resistance will also change the frequency response. BUT why would you buy a cable with high resistance?? All it will do is roll off the frequency response by a couple db in the 10-20 KHz range.

at no given point did I ever say that an EQ doesn't work better than quality cables. But again, in home audio EQs are rarely used anymore and can't be used properly in a HT without going extremely high end which no one on here has.

Never said you did say that. That is a problem with HA. Its so ridiculously overpriced. HA enthusiasts would be much better served by a good EQ than fancy cables and extension cords.

So you're saying that speaker wires don't matter either. The signal has to go allllll the way through the circuit board of the HU, down a cable (which wal-mart cables are apparently as good as Stinger Helix), alllllll the way through the amplifer's circuit board and then to the speaker wire. So why have quality cable there? Might as well just terminate some old lamp cord and call it a day because you're EQ (yet another step in the signal path) will fix any disturbances. Now I know I'm talking about speaker cable while you're talking about a power cable in a home amp but regardless, if the power has resistance for that last 6 feet of wire before hitting your amp's power supply, resistance is resistance and we all know that resistance can and will color sound. If you have distorted power coming in, that distortion will carry into the sound of that amplifier.

As a matter of fact, speaker wire matters even less than RCA's! I have ALWAYS used the cheapest speaker wires I can find and the wires Im using in my Accord right now are the cheap set from Walmart. The only thing that matters is the gauge. 50' of 14 gauge for $12. Ill take that anyday of the week and twice on Sunday over $50/ft Golden Ear speaker wires. Granted you could make a case that a speaker wire with ultra resistance and no strand count would hurt the signal, but even the cheapest speaker wires will have adequate resistance and strand count and so on.

Mac, I have nothing but mad respect for you when it comes to the mobile audio side of things but you still have a lot to learn about audio as a whole. I know this because I thought I knew a lot when I was a car only buff but it wasn't until I got head deep into home audio and all of it's anomalies that do change sound.

Right back at ya my brother but I reject the notion that because I dont think different types of wall outlets change the sound that Im naive. Im an in NO WAY saying you shouldnt buy this stuff or that youre stupid for doing so. Its a hobby and its for fun and if you desire expensive cables and fancy gadgets like cable risers, then go for it. All Im saying is that they dont make a sonic difference but if you like the peace of mind by having top shelf cables and such, then go with God.

Wait so you're saying that amplifiers put out DC voltage? uuuuuuuhhhhhhh My speakers go in and out. No DC voltage here.

No, Im saying that the amp RUNS on DC voltage. The signal it puts out is a sine wave but I can guarantee you that what youre hearing from your speakers is NOT coming from the wall socket. The amp takes the AC coming in from the wall and runs it thru a transformer switching it to DC and then powers its inards with that. Does it matter what hose you use to fill up your tank with gas? Will it run better if you fill it up with a magic hose?

[mwh9]

Y'all make me laugh so hard I'm even typing with a Texas accent. I sure hope that Bellvue isn't monitoring this. Your next posts will be from the funny farm. They make the fancy gold plated cables with all the frills just for people that don't have any better way to spend their money. Rest assured that you will most likely get a cable that is as good as you can get at Walmart. Well, most of the time.

[1996blackmax]

I have these cables in my car ( http://www.knukonceptz.com/productDe...rodID=KRYB4.4M ) . In some spots they are running next to the power cables. I have zero noise issues. Nice cable for a nice price.

[Toxis]

I guarantee I can take anyone, ANYONE! and do a speaker wire A-B comparison and you WILL hear a difference. Same gauge wire, both have banana clips etc... You will hear a difference. I've done it a ton just to make sure that I have the sound I'm trying to achieve and that nothing can out do what I already have. To say speaker wire from Wal-Mart is as good as quality wire literally saddens me for the audio industry. This is exactly why people go for Home Theater in a Box, small speakers and Bose! So busy looking at a piece of paper and forgetting to actually listen to the product. So sad.

[mwh9]

Before what I said gets taken the wrong way, I do think that using good quality wires is a good thing. Just remember that the wire is not the only place for signal loss to happen. The connectors, the soldered connections, and many other places are all possible signal loss areas. You could do these yourself but, if not, chances are that they were done by someone that is get paid $6.00 an hour, who even if they do care, has a boss that is telling them that their production output is not high enough and that they had better do things faster if they want to keep their job. And if I did buy a home theater in a box, it would be the I-Sonic from Polk, just because it's from Polk.

[PoweredByDodge]

"good cables" aren't for "making good sound" --- they are for "preventing good sound from being influenced by outside forces".

that being said, there comes a point where the cables suit the environment to a reasonable degree.

high interference areas (such as persons who may run their power, rca, and speaker wires next to each other, zip tied together) will, of course, require a likely very expensive, 'high tech' cable, to prevent interference.

low interference areas may lend to modestly priced cables providing sufficient protection --- whereas more expensive or "super" cables would also WORK but not provide any additional gain.

mac is absolutely right about AC power lines.

if you knew all the junk that the city of buffalo runs on, you'd be sick. my mains, and just about everyone else in the region, are 4 awg aluminum with a tar / cloth jacket... in short, total garbage. half the service line in my home is 1950's and 60's era 'snake line' (armored sheath within which run single pole-ungrounded 14/2 tinned copper), the rest is brand new NM-B2 14/2+G... I do not receive any better or worse performance when operating on either style of line (well, at least not since i re-wired everything for code).

if you wish to believe that magic smoke can some out of wires, then believe it, but don't expect the other half of the world (the half that walks upright and such) to buy into it.

[MacLeod]

I guarantee I can take anyone, ANYONE! and do a speaker wire A-B comparison and you WILL hear a difference. Same gauge wire, both have banana clips etc... You will hear a difference. I've done it a ton just to make sure that I have the sound I'm trying to achieve and that nothing can out do what I already have. To say speaker wire from Wal-Mart is as good as quality wire literally saddens me for the audio industry. This is exactly why people go for Home Theater in a Box, small speakers and Bose! So busy looking at a piece of paper and forgetting to actually listen to the product. So sad.

I agree with you completely about how sad it is that high fidelity is taking a back seat to HTiaB systems and Wal Mart speakers. However, I again reject the notion that by not believing in magic expensive cables, and believing good old fashioned science one is naive and missing out on something important.

You cant A/B cables by yourself partner. The ONLY way A/B testing can be scientific and objective is if the person taking the test has no clue what he's listening to - i.e. "blind" and both sets have to be level matched.

Try this: run down to Best Buy and buy some of their cheapest Acoustic Research cables (the Rat Shack dont count because of their lousy connection - a dead giveaway). Then sit and listen to your expensive cables real good and take note of the points that you think stand out.

Now leave the room and have your girlfriend/wife/buddy or whoever so long as he/she has no dog in the fight. Have them flip a coin 16 times. Heads is for your cables and tails is for the AR cables. Write these down as this will be the order of the tests.

Now come back into the room and sit where you cant see the amp/cables and take the test.

Play the SAME SONG each time. And since it may not be practical to level match, the easy way is to start each time with the volume at 0 and then turn it up til its about the same as it was before. Not the same volume number but the same apparant volume.

Listen to the song as long as you want and as many times as you want. Then guess which cables you were listening to. Write it down and have your partner move on to the next set of cables that are on the list. May be the same cables you just listened to, may be the other set.

After youve listened to all 16 tests, tally your score.

The only score that proves there is a difference would be 16 out of 16. I mean I could pick between an apple and an orange every time. However, 14 out of 16 is also statistic proof that there is some difference that you can pick up on.

10 right means pretty much nothing. You could get 8 right simply by flipping a coin 16 times and then add in some random luck and you could get another 2 right.

12 would be a gray area. A little too many for blind luck but still not enough to proove you can hear the difference.

Thats still not a totally scientific test but for your own curiosity it will do.

[Toxis]

ok, so I can say that I haven't done the test 16 specific times but I have taken and done A-B-C speaker wire comparisons where I would only use the same song (did this with probably 10 different songs of different genres/styles to get a full mix of sound) and had two friends (one on each speaker to make it faster) switch the wires. Now we turned the lights off so it was damn near pitch black (there was a little light behind there from under a door right by the rack) so the listener couldn't tell the wire by the wire itself so it was literally subjective. The two would make a list of what cable was A, B and C. We were using my Cobalt wires, Monster Z2 wires and MapleShade speaker wire (completely different cable, solid core, smaller gauge etc). The listener got to listen to A then B then C. We did them in that order 3 times. Then the listener wrote down what cable was A, B and C and what they liked and didn't like about them all on the same song. After all three did the "test" we checked our answers and guess what, I guessed all three cables exactly as did the other two guys (each guy had different A-B-C's). So yes I know the MapleShade is a different kind of cable but the Cobalt and Monster aren't that much different yet their sound was amazingly different.

Sure it wasn't in a lab and there was no probing or test tubes used, but that's as scientific yet fun we could make it.