Polk Junior High??

[burdette]

I haven't been frequenting this forum very long, but there is obviously some bad blood that appears to be 1) old; and 2) hanging around. I read a post today that said, because of some of the behaviors of some individuals, several guys who used to frequent have left for good. Through all this ****, people still throw out "if it sounds good to you it sounds good." They say it, and in the next breath they slam either an individual or that individual's opinion.

We're teaching our 5-year old the difference between saying "that is yucky" versus "I think that is yucky." One is a statement of apparent fact, one is an opinion. One slams the ability of the maker of the yucky item in question, one merely says I think it is yucky without passing an absolute judgment. When the time comes that I can afford to buy spiffy new speakers, I may come here seeking some opinions, I could conceivably go listening with one of you, but when it comes time to put my hard-earned money down, it will be my ears that make the decision, even if you think I'm crazy.

I mean, come on.. is *anyone* here really so fragile that they get some sort of thrill from slamming another guy's amp? Do any of us *really* feel so ****ty about ourselves that the only way to feel better is to point out that my amp is dual, stand-alone mono but YOURS is in a single box? You might as well throw in a nanny nanny boo boo. If you think your rig is *the* definition of perfection, are you not able to just quietly enjoy that thought without the need to rip apart anyone with different gear or who states an alternative opinion?

I'm an electrical engineer... I *know* how much science is behind some of this .. dare I say it.. hype having to do with interconnects. But I could easily see after just a few days here that many of you feel VERY strongly about expensive cables... and you know what? So what? So you do.. what is that off me? It advances my life or these discussions not one single bit for me to even throw in my two cents on cable discussions. It does nothing for anyone for me to slam a guy who spends alot on cables and talks them up.. except it would show me to have some need to be "right" and try to make others feel wrong. Maybe I don't feel that need because I haven't laid out the kind of dough many of you have.. I'm the guy with the Sherwood DD receiver and the Apex DVD player and a Sony CD changer from 1988... and the guy whose second Onkyo/Yamaha/Aiwa system is switched to mono and playing through a single M2 in the family room and a single M2 in the kitchen.

Come on... if my 5-year old can learn the difference between expressing an opinion versus making a statement of fact, if she can learn that it is NO reflection on her if someone disagrees with her... I think a group of big strong men like us can do it. And if you don't agree.. nanny nanny boo boo.

[TroyD]

well, said....hopefully well taken.


Troy

[Aaron]

For me, it's not about slamming someone's gear or proving that my gear is better than someone else’s gear; it's about fighting ignorance and retardation. There's a lot of that around here some days.

Aaron

[RuSsMaN]

Eg:

'Listen to me, I had a 45 minute demo a year ago. Don't listen to a respected audio journal, or someone who has owned the speakers for 10 effing years...'

That's effing retarded, imo of course....

[TroyD]

WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHH

I think that is the jist of it.

BDT

[burdette]

I think working to correct ignorance is great... there have been some VERY fundamental questions here recently.. the guy who didn't understand why his "woofer" (actually passive radiator) didn't have a motor. Heck, I started frequenting this site a couple of months ago after I got my first DD receiver and ... despite my 20+ years of audio experience and reading Sound & Vision, was basically clueless on some things when it came time to get my hands dirty. I think I admitted here that I spent the first night in DD land wondering why the hell my receiver wouldn't switch into 5.1 mode... all the time not having a digital connection between the DVD player and receiver!

As for fighting retardation... I'm not sure that is a fight you can win short of developing the ability to create new brain tissue. The larger issue might be that someone will have to be comfy referring to, what is to them obvious, retardation by the more cordial moniker 'difference of opinion.'

As we used to say in school... "four years ago I could not even spell engineer.. now I are one."

[Ron-P]

it's about fighting ignorance and retardation.

SA...Super Aaron, defender of components, protector of the audio truth and ridding the world of ignorance and retardation. One man, one world, lots of ignorant retards...


Peace Out~:D

[Aaron]

'Listen to me, I had a 45 minute demo a year ago. Don't listen to a respected audio journal, or someone who has owned the speakers for 10 effing years...'

Of course, that's not half as retarded as comparing a 10+ year old article to all the current equipment of today (which it didn't address) OR taking a biased owner's view of how his speakers are better than everything that's out there without ever listening to any of them. Please.

Aaron

[Aaron]

SA...Super Aaron, defender of components, protector of the audio truth and ridding the world of ignorance and retardation. One man, one world, lots of ignorant retards...

Hahahahhah! Damn straight, Ron! :D

Aaron

[RuSsMaN]

Since the whole 'age' thing seems to bother you, do me favor, 'please'.

Why don't you share with me what modernization or updates have occured with Ribbon tweeters in the past 10 yrs. What exactly would make these speakers sound 'old', and not compare with ribbons of today? (which one could then compare to other types of speakers today also)

Enlighten me rookie, it's your world, I'm just living in it.

[Aaron]

Since the whole 'age' thing seems to bother you, do me favor, 'please'.

The thing that bothers me about age is that they [BAS] are comparing the state of the art 10+ years ago to the Amazings. That's fine given the context of the article. However, it's not fair to hold that review in the same light given the passing of time and all kinds of new products. Just look at the technology advancement from the Matrix 800 (mentioned in the article) to the Nautilus 800.

Why don't you share with me what modernization or updates have occured with Ribbon tweeters in the past 10 yrs. What exactly would make these speakers sound 'old', and not compare with ribbons of today?

I'm not only talking about ribbons, I'm talking about everything (all driver technology, cabinet design, new materials, etc.). I'm not saying that the ribbons sound old, though they might to some people. I can't give you the specifics on ribbon advancement, but it seems that Magnepan has significantly improved their's over the years. They used to be notorious for their lack of bass. I wouldn't call the MG 1.6/QR's lacking in bass at all, though certainly not the last word in it. If you read the reviews on the 1.6 and 3.6 you'll see that typically the reviewer is surprised by how much bass these speakers produce and how they're not like the Maggy's of old.

which one could then compare to other types of speakers today?

I have no idea. My experience with old speakers is limited, but the best that I've heard, the Amazings and the SDA SRS-1.2's, can't stand up to the best speakers of today (in my opinion). If you trade off bass performance a bit of presence you can get a speaker that significantly betters them in all other categories at very close to their price, given inflation (and of course in my opinion).

The point that I'm trying to make is not that the Amazing isn't a good speaker, but rather that there are much better speakers out there (in my opinion). This article in no way addresses the speakers that are out there today, nor does the owner. It surprises me that you're even trying to dispute this.

Aaron

[RuSsMaN]

God I love to watch you type.

So technological 'advancements' = better sound? How did I not see the logic here? Shame on me.

You don't want to take the BAS Speaker's word for it, but these misc 'reviewers' that notice a bass increase on Maggies, you will.

Have you yourself heard 'old' Maggies to make a personal judgement, because I know you aren't simply beliveing a review, are you?

Dispute? I'm not disputing anything, just trying to make a point.

If (God rest his soul) Henry Kloss were to sit down with you, and show you what a AR3a sounds like, I'd love to hear you tell him it can't stand up to 'modern' designs (around the same pricepoint), and exactly why.

Well, that about does it for me on this topic, too much energy spent, for basically no benefit.

I agree to disagree....and I'm off to listen to my garage-sale rig...

[joe logston]

the biggest advancement in technolaly is in the software.
im hear the try to help people and learn, and i learned a lot from this forum, and its a real good forum. i mite not know every thing, but i try to help. the only way to learn, is by reading apiningated posts whitch some is horse ****, but you still learn alot from every one, so just read and make up your own mine.

in glad that im in this forum, thanks

[mantis]

I believe all of you make really good points in your own rights.

The fact of or....better put the art of listening lies in the one......meaning you.

The BAS review and George with his Amazing's,are completely opnion.I have talked to one of my audiophile store owners and he said the amazings both models where in fact a nice sounding speaker for what they cost back then.....The 1.3 and the 1.6???I can't remember the model numbers he talked about but there was more then one Amazing speaker by Carver.He also stated that they took an awefull amount of power to make them sing.With listening to him talk and George and his thing,I still have no Opnion on these speakers without personally hearing them.To say they are the be all end all in speaker even up to 100k???I can't even start to believe it even if BOB Carver himself Swore to it.I need to make my own personal opnions on what sounds good.I think who is reading this should do the same.

I think most of us Clowns in here say some wrong things indirectly or even directly at others gear.Not a good thing to do.I myself try my best not to insult other members with what they own.I don't like it when It's done to me.

Aaron and Russman had a pretty good debate.....but Russ,I'd like to hear YOUR Opnion on these speakers vs anything you have heard.Same with you Aaron,I read what you thought, but how much is real world listening?I can't argue a review.The person writing it feels that way.Nobody else has the right to say he's wrong unless he states fact..wrong.

Ok I'm not going to go very far with this.I hope we all can play nice with each other(Damn there goes that humor again nascarman).
Dan

People lastnight was a real rare one........funny at times and plain out wrong in others.;)

[RuSsMaN]

Dan, I have nothing more to say to you brotha.... My opinions and my time are better spent via other mediums. You are a loose cannon, and your friend has straight up lost it. He almost seems like a decent dude on a VERY rare occasion, then he comes out of left field and goes scorched earth trying (unsuccessfully) to mow people (and their gear) down.

Mood swings like a manic depressive, its old, and played out. Who exactly was 'kicking' your LSi's last night when your wheels shot off? You seem to thrive on caos, paranoia, or an unhealthy mix of both. I'm tired of one minute 'Cmon, DO YOU KNOW, DO YOU?', to the next minute 'Why can't we all get along?'.

Regardless, do what you will, as you will, it concerns me not. You don't value my opinions, nor reap any benefit from them, so 'eff ya'... I got nothing for ya... I truely hope you enjoy your audio endeavors, past, present and future.

Cheers,
Russ

[nascarmann]

You forgot.........THE END

[shack]

If (God rest his soul) Henry Kloss were to sit down with you, and show you what a AR3a sounds like, I'd love to hear you tell him it can't stand up to 'modern' designs (around the same pricepoint), and exactly why.

I think if Henry Kloss was still here today he would be looking at ways he could improve the AR3a using new technology, materials, processes or whatever else is available to make them better. The desire to improve on what already existed made Kloss and and all of the other past and present leaders in this industry great.

[RuSsMaN]

You are exactly right shack, he would do JUST that, and it would be greatness repeating itself.

However, it would still not change the fact that the 'old' design continues to stand the test of time, and its still sought after by many..... some collectors, some people that just want great sound...

Cheers,
Russ

[TroyD]

Empirically speaking, Henry was not one to sit on his duff looking to the past.....think about it, KLH, Advent, AR, Cambridge Soundworks (mail order hifi? that was forward thinking)...not to mention Boston Acoustics that might as well have been a Kloss venture.....

Yeah, Henry wasn't looking for cutting edge, he WAS cutting edge......

BDT

[HBombToo]

Burdette, good post but I think the point was lost.

When I get back to MO... me you and Karl from the board have to get together for a drink.

We are also EE's and have the point of view that all opinions have value and the more you drink the better it gets.

HBomb

[Aaron]

God I love to watch you type.

I'm a sexy bitch, ain't I?

So technological 'advancements' = better sound? How did I not see the logic here? Shame on me.

Give me a break, man. All else being equal, yes. There have been all kinds of technical advancements such as new driver materials (allowing for greater power handling, less distortion, and greater frequency response) and improved manufacturing techniques allowing for more complex designs and lower costs (be it drivers or cabinets). Incremental improvements such as better cabinet construction and driver separation/isolation are also important. I would also say the science of speaker design has also advanced (i.e. measuring devices, computer simulation, acoustics).

You don't want to take the BAS Speaker's word for it, but these misc 'reviewers' that notice a bass increase on Maggies, you will.

Have you yourself heard 'old' Maggies to make a personal judgement, because I know you aren't simply beliveing a review, are you?

I was merely using the reviews to illustrate my point. I also think it's significant to note that these are from two sources, so the bias should be less. No, I haven't heard the old Maggies.

If (God rest his soul) Henry Kloss were to sit down with you, and show you what a AR3a sounds like, I'd love to hear you tell him it can't stand up to 'modern' designs (around the same pricepoint), and exactly why.

My dad spent a good deal of time demoing the AR3a's and the Rectilinear 3's back in the day. In the end he felt the Rectilinear was the better speaker and bought them. I demoed them against the RT12's, and they embarrassed the Rectilinear's.

I agree to disagree....and I'm off to listen to my garage-sale rig...

What exactly are you disagreeing about? If you ever get to hear a pair of Amazings and some of the other speakers that I'm talking (and have listened to), then we'll talk.

Aaron

[Aaron]

Same with you Aaron,I read what you thought, but how much is real world listening?

All of my speaker comparisons are from actual listening, man. I've had two demos of the George's Amazings.

Aaron

[RuSsMaN]

So you've had one more demo than I have on Amazings. What was your dad using for sources/amps when he chose the rec's? But then again, you don't have your dad's ears.

This is pointless, non productive gibber jabber at this point (to me), fine, I fold, you are CORRECT, on every point. Hbomb speaketh the truth, I should have listened sooner...

-Russ

[TroyD]

Man,we should let this die.......but what the heck...

Let's consider one last point....economies of scale. Let's take, oh hell, I don't care, a REALLY expensive pair of speakers, say a JMLab Grand Utopia or whatever, it doesn't matter. Can you really justify the cost in terms of materials and R&D? I doubt it. A smaller boutique company has got to charge more on a per unit basis because they simply don't sell as many units.

In Bob Carver's case (now I'm NOT making the argument that the Amazing is or is not in the same league as that's not the point) at the time of the Amazing, I'd venture that Carver was a fairly high volume outfit as audio companies go. What does that mean? That old Bob didn't need to charge as much per unit as other companies. Bob could theoretically ( as Polk can ) offer a better product at a lower price simply because of volume. I'd also venture to say that was Bob's M.O. during his tenure at Carver and Phase Linear, most bang for the buck.

Anyway, that's just an opinion......this is giving me tired head. And I'm with Russ in that this seemingly revolving pattern of chaos, turmoil then kiss and make up is getting pretty stale.

BDT

[mantis]

Cool,
Thats ok my me.The twist of fate that goes on in here is comical.

Russ,
If thats the way it is........fine.

TroyD,
The way you word your posts led me to believe you where kicking my stuff,you said your whern't in any way shape or form,I accept,I say sorry for ripping out on everyone.

Aaron,
No attack on you brother,You just post a ton of different gear around here and I was wondering how much of it you listened to.

But thats fine........I seem to worn out my welcome in here,I deserve some of that.
But it seems ok for everyone to joke around with me and everyones fine with that.I voiced I wasn't fine with busting my stones on a regular basis.You guys do it everysingle day with using my LINES.I know do you?And such,side side the attack,it's endless.

But you know what,it's all good.

Last words........
I'm sorry if and for who I offended with anything I wrote the other night,as well for anything that I said to offend anyone in the past.

I know one member that thought I was picking on his gear and that was nascarman,
Dude your system is nice bro......I never meant to kick it in any way.The joke about the TV stand was purely a joke.If thats what you need to use as a TV stand for whatever your reasons are,I have no right to kick it.If it sounded like It did,I'm sorry.

Well I really don't have anthing else to say.
My welcome seems worn out.
Dan

[TroyD]

Dan, your welcome is not worn out. The pattern of chaos and turmoil though does get trying though. I though we had worked out our differences and using your lines is only joking like I would with every other friend......Let's just all move on to the next chapter, shall we??

BDT

[hotwheelman]

The pursuit of sonic bliss will never end,past, present, or future. :D

[Billm57]

Originally posted by burdette
I haven't been frequenting this forum very long, but there is obviously some bad blood that appears to be 1) old; and 2) hanging around. I read a post today that said, because of some of the behaviors of some individuals, several guys who used to frequent have left for good. Through all this ****, people still throw out "if it sounds good to you it sounds good." They say it, and in the next breath they slam either an individual or that individual's opinion.

We're teaching our 5-year old the difference between saying "that is yucky" versus "I think that is yucky." One is a statement of apparent fact, one is an opinion. One slams the ability of the maker of the yucky item in question, one merely says I think it is yucky without passing an absolute judgment. When the time comes that I can afford to buy spiffy new speakers, I may come here seeking some opinions, I could conceivably go listening with one of you, but when it comes time to put my hard-earned money down, it will be my ears that make the decision, even if you think I'm crazy.

I mean, come on.. is *anyone* here really so fragile that they get some sort of thrill from slamming another guy's amp? Do any of us *really* feel so ****ty about ourselves that the only way to feel better is to point out that my amp is dual, stand-alone mono but YOURS is in a single box? You might as well throw in a nanny nanny boo boo. If you think your rig is *the* definition of perfection, are you not able to just quietly enjoy that thought without the need to rip apart anyone with different gear or who states an alternative opinion?

I'm an electrical engineer... I *know* how much science is behind some of this .. dare I say it.. hype having to do with interconnects. But I could easily see after just a few days here that many of you feel VERY strongly about expensive cables... and you know what? So what? So you do.. what is that off me? It advances my life or these discussions not one single bit for me to even throw in my two cents on cable discussions. It does nothing for anyone for me to slam a guy who spends alot on cables and talks them up.. except it would show me to have some need to be "right" and try to make others feel wrong. Maybe I don't feel that need because I haven't laid out the kind of dough many of you have.. I'm the guy with the Sherwood DD receiver and the Apex DVD player and a Sony CD changer from 1988... and the guy whose second Onkyo/Yamaha/Aiwa system is switched to mono and playing through a single M2 in the family room and a single M2 in the kitchen.

Come on... if my 5-year old can learn the difference between expressing an opinion versus making a statement of fact, if she can learn that it is NO reflection on her if someone disagrees with her... I think a group of big strong men like us can do it. And if you don't agree.. nanny nanny boo boo.

so you are going to teach all of us like you are teaching your 5 year old??? gee thanks Dad

[Zero]

Maybe if we all behiave, he will buy us a cool toy then ? :D

[TroyD]

yeah, I'd like a new rack for my 2ch rig.....maybe a Carver C-1 preamp and a turntable...

BDT