Subs with Full Range Speakers

[Early B.]

Just curious -- does anyone have/had full range speakers along with a subwoofer? If so, how did it sound compared to running the speakers without the sub? Where did you set the crossover?

Thanks.

[jakelm]

My 7b's are ran full range. They dont have much punch below 40hz, so I added a sub crossed over at 40hz. Once I got the system in phase, the sub really made a difference in the "feel" of the music.

Also, IMO, when using full range speakers, sometimes you have to sacrifice very low bass for mids and highs. Having a sub, you can place it in the "sweet" spot for bass and place the mains in the "sweet" spot for mids and highs.

[jdhdiggs]

My mags hit down to 35Hz so their pretty close to full range and my 1B's were down in the low 30's as well. Now I have not heard the AR-9's or the amazings, but I have not heard a full range speaker not benifit from a subwoofer of comparable quality.

On the maggies, I set the x-over between 40-45, the 1B's sounded better in the 60hz range. To me, the sound is just more full than before and a bit more dynamic, granted you need a decent sub. $500 from best buy's not going to cut it.

[pearsall001]

Just curious -- does anyone have/had full range speakers along with a subwoofer? If so, how did it sound compared to running the speakers without the sub? Where did you set the crossover?

Thanks.

What's going on Early? What are you thinking of doing now? I've been tempted before with the sub idea. I guess it depends on how much of a bass head you are & what type of music you like. From what I've read almost any speaker, even full range, can benefit from a "good" sub. My only concern is the expense in buying a top notch sub (they ain't cheap) & then to get it to blend in seamlessly. My AAD 2001 monitors hit with plenty of punch down to 25Hz. For me personaly that's plenty. Would they benefit from a good sub - sure they would - but not worth the expense & aggrivation in my book.

Phil

[TroyD]

IF you can find a sub that mates well with your speakers and IF you can get it to blend properly...

Those are big 'IF's' though...

BDT

[dkg999]

I have a sub running with my Magnepan 1.6's. It's x-over at 45hz, and it's barely turned up. It's amazing how it just fills in the low end, adding depth and punch, and you don't realize how much until you turn it off.

[steveinaz]

Early,
A couple years ago I ran towers with an SVS+. If IRC, I had the xover set at 50Hz (the towers spec'd at 35Hz). It worked out well on paper (had a really good freq curve)...I just didn't care for the lumpy bass; I later sold the SVS to I-SIG, who still has it.

[AndyGwis]

Early - I've been interested in adding a sub to my 2-channel Thiel rig. The Thiel's mid-bass bumps pretty good, but the real low end just isn't there.

But, it's hard to add a $500 sub to speakers that probably aren't worth quite that much, just to get the extra material from 20hz to 50hz.

I assume that one day when I have more space (I have zero free space in my apartment right now), I'll add a decent sub. Probably will look for something used in the $200 - $300 range, but not sure much is available at that price point.

Quick question: If I were to get a passive sub (like the SVSs Russman had for a bit), I would need to go from my integrated's preouts to an amp to a crossover, to the sub, right? A crossover would be needed for most passive subs, correct?

Haven't used a passive so not 100% sure. Thanks for the help on that quicky, and sorry for jacking your thread. Least it was somewhat on-topic.

[Early B.]

Just to clarify -- by full range speaker, I mean speakers that dip down at least to about 25 Hz and lower.

[Early B.]

What's going on Early? What are you thinking of doing now? I've been tempted before with the sub idea. I guess it depends on how much of a bass head you are & what type of music you like. From what I've read almost any speaker, even full range, can benefit from a "good" sub.

That last sentence is what I'm very, very curious about. I've read that, too, and I'm wondering how a VMPS sub would sound with my VMPS speakers. They use the same megawoofer. I'm thinking the sub would be crossed over at around 30 - 35 Hz, so only the lowest material would be played through the sub. I dunno, just thinking out loud.

And yes, I'm a bass head.

[polkatese]

I have LSi15 paired with REL Storm III, Brad. It blends very nicely, and no tweaking of the crossover. Plug and Play and it sounds great.

The difference is, without REL, LSi15 bass sounds sloppy, with the combo, the bass sounds very tight and detailed.

[unc2701]

I've done it... each set up is going to vary, but as a general tip, I'd say to cross it over as low as the sub will allow with a steep slope (if you have that option)... and you might even want to send a filtered signal if you don't have a slope setting.

[jakelm]

Just to clarify -- by full range speaker, I mean speakers that dip down at least to about 25 Hz and lower.

To be honest, not many "average" full range speakers can do this. If yours can do this, then I would guess that they are high quality and I would think twice about mixing them with a sub.


Most higher end "full" range speakers I have heard dip down below 35hz, but with not much "oompphh". So a good sub would fill in the blanks down in the subsonic area.

But it all depends on how much bass you want. I would add because I am a bass head as well...:p Music or movies..I love it when my pictures shake on the walls and pots fall in the cabinets and glasses vibrate off the table...:p

[steveinaz]

If I had mains that dipped into 25Hz, even down 10dB, I wouldn't phutz with a sub---but that's me.

[pearsall001]

That last sentence is what I'm very, very curious about. I've read that, too, and I'm wondering how a VMPS sub would sound with my VMPS speakers. They use the same megawoofer. I'm thinking the sub would be crossed over at around 30 - 35 Hz, so only the lowest material would be played through the sub. I dunno, just thinking out loud.

And yes, I'm a bass head.

In theory you would assume that the VMPS sub would mate well with the VMPS speakers. A couple others come to mind - REL, JL Audio Fathom fl 13, ACI Titan XL, & Maestro XL. Now don't forget these babies are expensive. Out of curiuosity I tried my SVS for 2 channel & it was a disaster. They are dynamite for HT but don't handle the delicate stuff very well. At least in my opinion. Give VMPS a call & ask what they recommend. It sounds like a fun journey.

[AndyGwis]

Has anyone tried a Thiel Sub? I was checking their website for info on servicing my speakers, and their Smartsub subwoofers look awesome! Never seen or heard one, but they look great, are Thiel (so you know they're probably good), and have sick specs. Their 10in has a 500watt amp and 99db output at 20hz. The bigger ones are even more impressive.

[AndyGwis]

OK, nevermind. I just googled Thiel SmartSub and see the SS1 has a retail price of $2900. OUCH!!!

[SLOCOOKN]

I don't have the most "HI-FI" system. That said I do not have my 3.1's bi amped. I have them crossed over at 80 hz filtered through the pre. The Adcom is pushing the 3.1's and the carver is running the VMPS. I enjoy this set up very much.

The vmps is fast enough to deliver clean bass and meshes well with the 3.1's
I don't have to push the Adcom or the Carver very hard.

It works for me

Steve

[Ricardo]

If I had mains that dipped into 25Hz, even down 10dB, I wouldn't phutz with a sub---but that's me.

I would agree, and even make that 30 Hz. Blending a sub for a 2 channel rig is not an easy task.

[Ron Temple]

I find it totally content dependent. If the track is fairly bass heavy, I listen both ways to see which sounds best. With some things bass is just too hot throwing off the overall balance, but others, especially newer material that's mixed to take advantage of the sub, want it. For example, Fiona Apple's first album is extremely bass heavy, the SDA 1Cs are plenty. Porcupine Tree's DVD As are as well, but you want the bass from a sub to achieve the impact they intend from their live performances. I run them full or cut at 60. Though I get good response down to the mid 20s in my room, the 1Cs don't deliver near the impact of the SVS +.

[Normanality]

I would agree, and even make that 30 Hz. Blending a sub for a 2 channel rig is not an easy task.

Absolutely agree!

I've got the Innersound Eros Mk II's rated at 24 Hz. to 27 KHz. +/- 2 dB and I also have a Martin Logan Depth sub just sitting here unused. I tried to see if I could integrate it into my 2 channel with different placements around the room and trying all the phase adjustments. Since the mains already are like having stereo subs, I couldn't get any type of decent balance, so the sub just sits quietly 'unplugged' in the corner.

[halo]

Only time you need to go that low is when you listen to Yello Norm :p ;) :D

Most music doesn't dig deep enough, unless you like pipe organ music

[SCompRacer]

Absolutely agree!

Like you needed any more bass output.....LOL

[Early B.]

I'd love to try it out. Problem is -- my HT sub is passive with no external crossover, so I can't hook it up directly to my 2-channel pre. Maybe I'll borrow my friend's SVS to test it out.

The other problem is -- WAF. I only have one place to position the sub which is in line with the fronts.

Hmmm. Maybe another DIY sub project?

So many choices....

[I-SIG]

For my rig and placement having a sub is absolutely necessary. Even with my big SRS's I had a massive canyon (close to 10dB) in the mid-bass region from about 45-70hz edge to edge. There's an awful lot of bass information in those frequencies.

With some time and patience trying different settings the SVS Steve sold me has worked wonders. It easily filled in my canyon and gave me a nice gentle 4dB rise all the way down to 25hz.

With my room volume, I could probably use 2 of the PC+ 25-31's or a dual-driver Ultra box for movies, but for music the single cylinder is awesome.

I will admit that with the bi-amp setup I have going now the SVS may not be quite as fast as I would like, but for what Steve sold it to me for and what the new Ultra boxes or a REL are going for I'd be better off spending money on a source upgrade and/or Halo amps.

Wes

[reeltrouble1]

Never heard a sub really add anything to make the rig sound more musical. More bass sure, more musical, well, not for me.

RT1

[madmax]

It is so nice to not have a sub because of not having to futz around with it. Pretty much you become content with the curve of your present system, no matter what it is. With that said it sure would be nice to have one crossed over really low just to pick up that occasional sound. My guess is you should be able to play through 90% of your material without ever noticing a sub is connected. I've heard the Bag End sub and it tends to do this. Know nothing about it other than the name. Heard it (I think :)) but never saw it.
madmax

[engtaz]

Yes 3.1's with 15" sub

engtaz

[tonyb]

Early,maybe look for an amp with lots of juice to control those big woofers and tighten things up a bit.That was my main worry on my speaks,3 12 in on each side.Needless to say I don't miss a sub on music,maybe movies,but not music.Or look into your cables,when I switched,I noticed a huge improvement in the quality of the lower end...well,top end too.Good luck hunting.

[Early B.]

Early,maybe look for an amp with lots of juice to control those big woofers and tighten things up a bit.

The issue is my amp. My amp is 200 wpc. The Odyssey amp I tried was less than that, but the bass was 10x more impactful. It's interesting because the reviews of the Marsh A400 says it does bass very well.

However, I ain't changing out my amp because it sounds so sweet with everything else it does. To me, the bass is a minor issue, but I'm guessing a sub would be nice to experiment with. It's not a necessity by any means, but it should be fun to play around with.