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  1. #1

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    Question Proper Amp For RTi-12s?

    Hello, everybody,

    I've been lurking in these forums for a few years now, trying to learn as much as I can about speakers in general and Polk speakers in particular by reading what you all have to say, and learning from your experience. I never posted before because i didn't have anything to contribute, and I was able to find answers to all of my questions just by using the search function and following the threads. But now, I've come to the point where I finally need to speak up and ask my owned damned questions.:D

    Here's the deal. I'm upgrading the system I put together a couple of years ago, and replacing the RTi-6s with a pair of RTi-12s I bought from Crutchfield's last week. The 6s will move back and be my rears. I'm upgrading the receiver and the amp, too, in order to get my money's worth out of the 12s. For the amp, I'm shopping around for a used Carver, and I'm looking at several different models. The three from which I'm going to make my selection are the M1.5T, the TFM-55, and the M-500T. I've heard all three amps in the homes of various friends, but never have had the chance to do direct comparisons of the three. I know that all three sound very good to my ear, and I'm sure I'll be quite happy with whichever one I finally choose. But still, as long as I'm doing this, I'd like to get the best possible result. I don't ever want to sit there listening to Dark Side of The Moon and think to myself, "Geez, I wonder how much better this'd sound if I'd done more research."

    The question I have is this. From what I've read, most audiophiles seem to regard the M-500T as the best-sounding amp of the three, but at 250 WPC @ 8 ohms, it's also the least powerful. The TFM-55 and the M1.5T are both rated in the 350 - 380 WPC range. From everything I've read, the RTi-12s are very power-hungry speakers, and I'm wondering if the 250 WPC M-500T would be sufficient for them, or if I'd be happier going with one of the two higher-horsepower amps - even though they may not be quite as clean-sounding or musical as the M-500T. What do you Polk experts think - am I likely to get more satisfying sound from the lower-powered but (supposedly) somewhat better-sounding amp, or the higher-powered but (allegedly) slightly less-musical amps? Is 250 WPC enough to kick 'em into passing gear? Or am I just a dweeb who's overthinking this whole damned thing? For what it's worth, I plan on listening to a wide variety of music (everything but hip-hop and modern country) at relatively moderate volumes (the landlord lives upstairs).

    Thanks for your help, guys. I've learned tons from reading your posts over the years, and will be grateful for an opportunity to learn a little more!
    Last edited by Atomic Turtle; 10-23-2007 at 12:03 AM.

  2. #2

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    Welcome to the club Atomic Turtle!

    I have never heard any Carver amp so I cannot comment on which is better. If you can take your speakers by your friends, hook them up and let your ears decide. IMO a good sounding high current amp is what you need and unless you have a huge space to fill 250W will be enough. Again since you know people with these amps you're in a unique position to try them first, I would try to make that happen.
    AVR: Elite VSX-21TXH
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  3. #3

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    I don't have a comparison of all those Carver amps, but I don't think you can go wrong with any of them.

    Question: Do you have a good sub? I that's the case, any of those amps have more than enough power. Even with no sub and only 2-channel music, all of them would be great.

    If you do not have a sub and are relying on the RTi12 to be/support the sub all of them would be fine fo 99.9% of movie passages. Given your requirements, any will more than work.

    Remember, going from 250W to 380W is only ~1.5dB increase in volume, so yes you are overthinking and I have rambled on enough.
    There is no genuine justice in any scheme of feeding and coddling the loafer whose only ponderable energies are devoted wholly to reproduction. Nine-tenths of the rights he bellows for are really privileges and he does nothing to deserve them. We not only acquired a vast population of morons, we have inculcated all morons, old or young, with the doctrine that the decent and industrious people of the country are bound to support them for all time.-Menkin

  4. #4

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    Welcome to the forum ( As Atomic Punk from Van Halen is somehow ringing in my ears now :) ) I just picked up 2 pair of vintage Carver amps ( Silver Seven t's ) and I have heard the 500T and the 1.5 ( ...never heard the 55 )

    They are ALL really nice amps....it's like horsepower...just buy the most you can afford comfortably....you can always add more later. At least you are looking in a great direction from the get go. Again Welcome :)

  5. #5

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    At what point do you switch from wpc to being concerned about dynamic headroom? I have read that most people listening to audio can normally cover their listening level adequately with about 50 watts, but what gets them if they use a 50 watt amp is the possibility of not having enough power to handle transient spikes in power needs.

  6. #6

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    Depends on what you're listening to, your speakers, and your listening habits.
    There is no genuine justice in any scheme of feeding and coddling the loafer whose only ponderable energies are devoted wholly to reproduction. Nine-tenths of the rights he bellows for are really privileges and he does nothing to deserve them. We not only acquired a vast population of morons, we have inculcated all morons, old or young, with the doctrine that the decent and industrious people of the country are bound to support them for all time.-Menkin

  7. #7

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    I think the TFM55 was manufactured most recently...that's always a consideration on vintage equipment. I think George Grand said that the M500s sound very similar to the TFM 35. It's a nice amp that should work very well with RTis. All the Carver's should.

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  8. #8

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    Thank you all, for both the excellent advice and the warm welcome. Yeah, I probably am overthinking the whole thing, but I don't have much personal experience with higher-end gear, and I've often read that even at moderate volumes, more powerful amps tend to have a cleaner, fuller sound. My thinking was that if this is the case, 350 or 380 watts might prove to be substantially better than 250 - especially given that the RTi-12 seems to be a relatively "thirsty" speaker, from what I've read in the reviews and the user reports that I've been browsing over the last year or so.

    But from what you folks are saying, it sounds as though whatever difference there may be would be too slight for me to even notice. Which was pretty much what I expected, actually. It's possible - maybe even probable - that if I were running the different amps side by side in the same room, I'd be able to tell fairly easily which one sounded better than the others, but from what you guys are saying, whichever amp I choose is probably going to sound good enough that I'll be quite happy with it. Would that be a safe assumption?

    To answer a couple of your questions... no, I don't have a sub. Probably won't be getting one any time in the near future, either. I'm in an upstairs-downstairs duplex, and the landlord lives upstairs. They're nice people, and I'd prefer not to rattle their floors and walls without good reason. The RTi-12s are going to be pretty much it. And as for hauling the 12s around to the homes of my friends to test the various Carvers, that's probably not a viable option. I live in the Twin Cities, but only one of the amps I've listened to lives nearby. The others live in Wisconsin, Chicago, and Hawaii. I'm just going to wind up picking whatever amp seems like the best choice at the time, pulling the trigger on the deal, and letting the chips fall where they may. What the hell - if I ever decide I don't like the amp, I'll put it up on EBay and buy a different one. I'm buying the damned thing, not marrying it.

    One other question, though - until I do find a good buy and pull that trigger, I'm still going to be using my old Panasonic SA-55 receiver, 100 WPC. Is that too weak for the RTi-12s? I'm a little worried that it won't be enough power, and that I'll damage the speakers. Or am I overthinking that one, too?

  9. #9

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    Welcome AT.

    I would get as much power as you can afford. With all the drivers that the 12's have I should think the more the better.

    I can tell you that I couldn't hear a difference between 200wpc & 400wpc with my speakers. But I only have 2 drivers with a top rating of 250wpc.

    Just keep an eye on the volume & don't overdrive them. Receivers very seldom put out all the volume they say they are capable of.
    Sunfire TGP III PrePro, Sunfire Cinema Grand Signature 405wpc 5 ch. Amp, Rotel RCD-1072 CDP, Onkyo TA2600 Tape Deck, Pioneer Elite 47-A DVD, Sony 32" XBR TV, Polk RTA-8T Main Speakers, Boston VR-920 Center Channel, Boston PV-600 Subwoofer, Polk DSW 400 Subwoofer, Polk FXi-3 Surround Speakers

  10. #10

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    My maggies are a much thirstier speaker than the RTi12's and I have never come close to running out of power at 350+W. I was never really came close at 170W either. Most of my listening will touch maybe 25-30W at peak. I would guess that it wouldn't make a difference if you had a 150W amp or a 6 GW amp.


    As for you current power source, just don't crank it up to "11" and you'll be fine. If you are really, REALLY worried, set the speaker size to small. Just remember to switch back when you get the amp.
    There is no genuine justice in any scheme of feeding and coddling the loafer whose only ponderable energies are devoted wholly to reproduction. Nine-tenths of the rights he bellows for are really privileges and he does nothing to deserve them. We not only acquired a vast population of morons, we have inculcated all morons, old or young, with the doctrine that the decent and industrious people of the country are bound to support them for all time.-Menkin

  11. #11

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    Welcome, stay awhile. I think the M-500T will do just fine. If you have the coin go the M1.5T.

    Good luck,
    engtaz

  12. #12
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    I've posted it before here but while my Outlaws run the Rti-12 fine (200 Watts) they do not push the 3 7" woofers enough for my liking. Right now I have 1 Outlaw per rti12 but I have biamped them and by doing that, been able to get those 3 7" woofers moving a lot better. I don’t want to type out what I did but if you search the forums for rti12 you can probably find it pretty easy. You can get some great bass out of them without having to really crank the volume on the top (which gets to loud).

    The Rti12 is a real loud speaker and you really need a pretty big room for them. Tweeking can get volume on the top down (matching the rest of your speakers) and pull more bass out of the bottom.

  13. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by Silverti View Post
    I've posted it before here but while my Outlaws run the Rti-12 fine (200 Watts) they do not push the 3 7" woofers enough for my liking. Right now I have 1 Outlaw per rti12 but I have biamped them and by doing that, been able to get those 3 7" woofers moving a lot better. I donít want to type out what I did but if you search the forums for rti12 you can probably find it pretty easy. You can get some great bass out of them without having to really crank the volume on the top (which gets to loud).

    The Rti12 is a real loud speaker and you really need a pretty big room for them. Tweeking can get volume on the top down (matching the rest of your speakers) and pull more bass out of the bottom.
    Yikes. Well, here's where I show my ignorance. That sounded like really useful information, but I'm afraid I have no idea what you mean by "cranking the volume on top" or "tweeking can get the volume on the top down to match the rest of the speakers." It sounds important, but it's over my head. Is there anywhere I can go to read up on that?

    Thanks to everyone, by the way. This has all been really helpful. Even though some of the advice directly contradicts other suggestions, it all helps me to understand more clearly the bigger picture. I think what I'm leaning toward doing is grabbing an M500-T and seeing how that sounds for a few months. Then, I'll probably start watching EBay for a really good deal on an M1.5T, and see how that sounds. Whichever one I like the least, I'll put back up on Ebay and get my money out of it, or close to it anyway. If it turns out the M500-T is the better amp, but still feels a little underpowered, I'll pick up another one and bi-amp them. They're going for around 300 bucks on EBay these days, so it's a pretty affordable option.

    As it happens, the speakers got here today. Just picked 'em up a couple of hours ago at the freight warehouse, and I'm giving 'em the Led Zeppelin test right now - 2 or 3 tracks apiece from "In Through The Out Door", "Houses Of The Holy", and "Physical Graffiti." Even with my lil' old Panasonic receiver, they sound friggin' incredible! I've been listening to these albums for almost 30 years, but this is the first time I've ever really heard them. There's stuff on there I never knew was there. I can't wait to see what they sound like with a better receiver and a better amp. Next up, the "Dark Side Of The Moon" test, then the "Abbey Road" test, and then the "Beethoven's 9th" test. I'm glad I bought groceries yesterday, because I may not leave the house again until sometime next week. I am one very happy turtle today, yes indeed. :D

  14. #14

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    LOL! Congrats AT! Enjoy. Just don't let the volume get too high.
    Sunfire TGP III PrePro, Sunfire Cinema Grand Signature 405wpc 5 ch. Amp, Rotel RCD-1072 CDP, Onkyo TA2600 Tape Deck, Pioneer Elite 47-A DVD, Sony 32" XBR TV, Polk RTA-8T Main Speakers, Boston VR-920 Center Channel, Boston PV-600 Subwoofer, Polk DSW 400 Subwoofer, Polk FXi-3 Surround Speakers

  15. #15

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    Not one vote for Adcom, or Parasound
    Please. Please contact me a ben62670 @ yahoo.com. Make sure to include who you are, and you are from Polk so I don't delete your email. Also I am now physically unable to work on any projects. If you need help let these guys know. There are many people who will help if you let them know where you are.
    Thanks
    Ben

  16. #16

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    I love Adcom but he asked about 3 Carver model's.

    engtaz

  17. #17

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    Check into the Carver Sunfire Signature Stereo Amplifier Series II. You can find them on eBay sometimes. Or if that one you cant find any of the Sunfire amps would push your 12's great!
    My sunfire Rocks my little LSi system like never before.

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  18. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by cfrizz View Post
    LOL! Congrats AT! Enjoy. Just don't let the volume get too high.
    Hoo boy, I sure learned that lesson pretty quickly. I was listening to Santana's "See The Light" (a song with a very deep, loud bass line) at a sorta-high moderate volume, and the bass sounded terrible - mushy and distorted. Jumped up and dialed it back several notches immediately. It wasn't cranked by any means, but my guess is that the Panasonic just didn't have the muscle to push all the big drivers on those 3 woofers even at a moderate volume. It sounded great up until that point - crisp, clean, clear on every song I played, but that particular track needs a lot of bass, and I guess it was more than the Panasonic could handle.

    Maybe I'm being too cautious, but I think I'm just going to keep the volume really low until I get the bigger amp. The easy way the speakers were breezing through everything I played up until then lulled me into a false sense of security, and when it hit that bass part, I wasn't ready for the way they just bogged down. I don't want to take a chance on any more deep bass lines sneaking up on me like that.

  19. #19

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    Atomic - What twin cities do you live in? (at least what state...)
    Mains.............Polk LSi15 (Cherry)
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  20. #20

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    I'm in the Twin Cities of Minnesota, the Woodbury area to be exact - a suburb of St. Paul. I've gotta find the user option that allows me to put that into my profile here... gimme a minute... (rummage, rummage, rummage...)

  21. #21

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    Well that is one of the fastest confirmations we've ever had about receivers not being able to power big speakers properly!:D

    Don't forget to keep an eye on Audiogon for Amps as well. There are quite a few Sunfires for sale on there right now that will make those 12's VERY happy.:D

    Quote Originally Posted by Atomic Turtle View Post
    Hoo boy, I sure learned that lesson pretty quickly. I was listening to Santana's "See The Light" (a song with a very deep, loud bass line) at a sorta-high moderate volume, and the bass sounded terrible - mushy and distorted. Jumped up and dialed it back several notches immediately. It wasn't cranked by any means, but my guess is that the Panasonic just didn't have the muscle to push all the big drivers on those 3 woofers even at a moderate volume. It sounded great up until that point - crisp, clean, clear on every song I played, but that particular track needs a lot of bass, and I guess it was more than the Panasonic could handle.

    Maybe I'm being too cautious, but I think I'm just going to keep the volume really low until I get the bigger amp. The easy way the speakers were breezing through everything I played up until then lulled me into a false sense of security, and when it hit that bass part, I wasn't ready for the way they just bogged down. I don't want to take a chance on any more deep bass lines sneaking up on me like that.
    Sunfire TGP III PrePro, Sunfire Cinema Grand Signature 405wpc 5 ch. Amp, Rotel RCD-1072 CDP, Onkyo TA2600 Tape Deck, Pioneer Elite 47-A DVD, Sony 32" XBR TV, Polk RTA-8T Main Speakers, Boston VR-920 Center Channel, Boston PV-600 Subwoofer, Polk DSW 400 Subwoofer, Polk FXi-3 Surround Speakers

  22. #22

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    I have our 12's bi-amped with Adcom amps...200 wpc powering the lower end,and 125 wpc driving the mids and tweeters.

    This set-up is not ideal,but it will set you back in your chair if you want to:D
    SDA CRS+4.1TL's/Modded SDA 1C's/Modded SDA SRS 3.1 TL's/Modded SDA SRS 2.3TL

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Reeter View Post
    I have our 12's bi-amped with Adcom amps...200 wpc powering the lower end,and 125 wpc driving the mids and tweeters.

    This set-up is not ideal,but it will set you back in your chair if you want to:D
    ya, the rti12's can really make your ears bleed

  24. #24

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    Mr. Turtle, first off welcome to Club Polk.

    So let me get this straight. Hawaii is not convenient for you to bring your speakers to listen to your buddies amp? Slacker.

    Seriously, keep the volume down and when you do hear distortion, by all means jump up and turn it down. This fact you can use with any rig/speaker combo you will ever have. That said, power is overrated, spec's are overrated. Considering the fact that your landlord is directly above you, you may not want to bother with getting the M1.5t. The M-500t will do the speakers fine and provide a sweet sound for you.

    When you move out, then entertain the thought of an M1.5t as IMO it will be a waste where you are currently. Then you can decide as to what you want. But who knows, you might just be as happy as a clam in mud with your decision [whatever it may be] and call it quits. But once the bug hits, if it ever does...you will never be done.

    Food for thought.
    In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence.

    "The best way to enjoy digital music reproduction is to never listen to good analogue reproduction". - Kenneth Swauger

  25. #25

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    Quote Originally Posted by treitz3 View Post
    Mr. Turtle, first off welcome to Club Polk.

    So let me get this straight. Hawaii is not convenient for you to bring your speakers to listen to your buddies amp? Slacker.
    Well, it crossed my mind, believe me. I'm always looking for an excuse to go back, but hauling 2 90-pound speakers all the way over there somehow just didn't seem practical no matter how ingeniously (or should I say, disingenuously) I tried to rationalize it. Which does raise the quesion of how expensive it'll be for me to ship them there when I ultimately do move back, but that's a bridge I'll drive across when I come to it. Thanks for the welcome, by the way - it's nice to see some familiar names from the Carver forum!



    Quote Originally Posted by treitz3 View Post
    Seriously, keep the volume down and when you do hear distortion, by all means jump up and turn it down. This fact you can use with any rig/speaker combo you will ever have. That said, power is overrated, spec's are overrated. Considering the fact that your landlord is directly above you, you may not want to bother with getting the M1.5t. The M-500t will do the speakers fine and provide a sweet sound for you.

    When you move out, then entertain the thought of an M1.5t as IMO it will be a waste where you are currently. Then you can decide as to what you want. But who knows, you might just be as happy as a clam in mud with your decision [whatever it may be] and call it quits. But once the bug hits, if it ever does...you will never be done.

    Food for thought.
    Oh, it'll hit. I know it will. I know this about myself; once I start down this road, I won't stop collecting amps and other gear until some family member does an intervention and has me committed. But what the hell, everybody needs hobbies, right? And I can think of worse things to which to be addicted.

  26. #26

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    I still new here but should this prev post(#26) be reported? Don't want to do it myself because I'm not sure what is proper or not. Thanks. Travis
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    Love the screen name A.T.....yes,any of the amps you mentioned are fine. I wouldn't limit myself to just carver amps, plenty of good used fish in the sea. Welcome.

  28. #28

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    why bump a 3 year old post?

  29. #29

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    It was most likely bumped by SPAM, the SPAM was removed, and someone decided to respond to the post before the SPAM was removed. We bump older posts than this here at CP all the time, it's no big deal.
    In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence.

    "The best way to enjoy digital music reproduction is to never listen to good analogue reproduction". - Kenneth Swauger

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