Wire's too much or not enough

[liv4fam]

I have a question about what everyone thinks about wiring.
I know we have been through this a zillion times but I really like to talk about wire since I feel that most of you think wire is all hype.
I see a lot of you own better,signal,AR,monster,kimber,etc.etc....What influences your wire decisions? Cost, performance, looks, easy to find? Do most of you listen to wires prior to purchasing them? How about speaker wires? How do you guys feel about mating the proper wires with the right speakers to improve on there strengths.

[HBombToo]

Cost is the biggest factor. I cannot justify a piece of wire costing more than 1 of my components. I prefer heavy gage stranded, 12 or 14 guage at the minimum. I shop at Radio Shack and have been pleased. This is just my opinion and hope I'm not beat about the head, neck and chest for posting it.

HBomb

[danger boy]

cost for me is a big factor too.. althougth i did purchase a moster cable that is specificly for a center channel speaker... cost $100 for 1 meter. only other expense was for two half meter cables that are silver core instead of copper. I use those from the receiver to the two front mono blocks. most of the rest of my speaker wire is 14 guage Liberty High Def, which is similar to monster XP.
but i'm with HBombToo, i could never see paying $500 + for interconnects or speaker wire. I'm sure lots of people would argue my point. but on a tight budget... i can't afford it. but i do shop around and do my homework too, i don't just buy something like monster cable.. just because that's all there is and that's what everyone else is using. so it must be good. I also use IXOS cables.. similar to Monster, but a little less expensive.
Oh yeah..i did buy a IXOS 1 meter cable.. to hook up the DVD-a player to the receiver... they were the only ones who were making a 6 RCA to 6 RCA at the time. cost $100

[Zero]

As most of the regulars here are aware of, I am still but a small fledgling in this world of audio, so my views and thoughts are perhaps not as validated as others here. But as usual, this wont keep me from creating blatenly arrogant posts! :D

In my neck of the woods, availability for brands other then acoustic research and monster are incredibly limited. The typical chain stores which sell these common wire generally do not allow for demo trials. This all comes to mean, you have very little to go on except reviews and a limited selection to play around with if you seek the stores out and take the time to travel to them.

Availability influences decision. Like many others I have trouble, especially while on a budget, finding a just reason to spend well over 200-300 dollars on 1 meter interconnects or speaker wire. When looking at costs, its strictly up to the individual. Does the performance gain, if any, satisfy the costumer enough that they feel that certain cable is worth it.

Mating, I believe is key to achieving proper balance and sound - but is it necessary? Im not quite sure, as I am completely unqualified to answer this given the extreme lack of experience with any variety of wire.

Personally, I went by the good word of this forum and other reviews, and then took a chance. I dont regret it, although often times I feel like the 300 bucks I spent, could have been used towards other things then copper and other materials..

Z

[gidrah]

A ratio of cost/performance. I'll give wire the credit it deserves, but it is an ingredient, not a meal. If I suddenly had $10K to spend on a system, I would set aside a portion of that for wire & cable. Having limited funds and systems to prove it, I make the best choices I can accordingly.

Along those lines I'm looking into doing some DIY. I can nail down what I would like to have, get the materials, etc, but time is currently at a premium.

Also I haven't found any store offering to loan out wire/cables. Either they're packaged or on a big spool. Either way, they are less likely to sell an open package or a section that has already been lopped off and terminated. I know I'd be hesitant to pay the same price.

[VE6OHV]

I just Bi-Wired my system tonight..... I'm not sure that it made any difference for me. Mind you I'm not running carver or rotel and LSI's. I use a standard 12ga copper core for the front and 14ga copper core for the rears, with regular twist-on banana plugs. It seems to work fine for me so far......

I have come to the conclusion that HT is like a race car. You can make an 11 second car with some time, money, off the shelf parts, some hand tools and attention to detail. To make it into a 10 second car you start to require, specialty parts and tooling, and an excessive amount of time and money. Most people are happy with their daily drivers, some people need better proformance, and yet others need the HUMMER.

Just my 2 cents.....

[F1nut]

VE6OHV,

Hey, I checked out your club site....cool. Brings back fun memories!
I use to run a '74 FJ40 Land Crusier, modified of course, down here in Maryland with a club called MORE4. I noticed that most of your guys are running Jeep's. Does anyone run a FJ40 or were they not imported to Canada? These days I'm into Formula 1..just watching, not driving.

BTW, without trying to start a war, I never met a Jeep that I couldn't out climb. :D ........Damn, I miss off-roading.

F1nut

[meestercleef]

In my budget niche, I only buy cheap aftermarket stuff. Audioquest sidewinder, RS Gold, entry-level Monster & Acoustic Research, even some Philips "premium" from Wal Mart. As a percentage of the total cost of my sytem, I can't justify spending more. I don't expect magical sonic improvement, but I hope that they are a little sturdier & better shielded than the stuff that comes with the components. If I had an amp that weighed more than my car & speakers that cost more than a new house, I'd be willing to spend more for interconnects.

[phuz]

VE6OHV that is a really good way to put it. A good friend of mine told me almost the same thing once.

Something like: "Hi-fi is like racing. You can have a $100,000 racecar that goes really fast, but if you want it to go just a tiny bit faster you have to spend another $100,000. Is it worth it?"

I think not. I guess if I was a millionaire I'd buy some of the more expensive cables, but I'm not and probably never will be. So I'll stick with Monster/AR/ and other moderately priced stuff. Yes price is a huge factor, especially since the margain of value seems to decrease as the price goes up.

Mating wire with speakers? C'mon... I can believe mating amps/receivers with speakers, but not wire.

[mantis]

phuz,
what he means by mating the correct wire with the amp/speaker combo....there is a sonic / tonal finding one might be after.....wire is a way to acomplish this goal......I know it sounds crazy to some...or most.....but , wire has different tonal properities.....for better or worse......I will add my opnion.

[liv4fam]

Well I am definitely not shocked that price seems to be the biggest decision maker when it comes to purchases. Without a doubt cost is always a concern but as far as performance goes all I can say is that you get what you pay for.
IMO I really think that wire is almost the most important part of any system simply because if the wire doesn't have the ability to just pass the signal without losing or gaining you will never truely see what your equipment is capable of.

Secondly, I want to address Phuz directly about mating speaker wire.
Everything has to be mated correctly in a system to include Amp to Pre-amp to sources to speakers to moniter and so on.............

I will am going to explain my views on mating with speaker wire since I just recently upgraded my own personal and why.
All wire manufacturers design there wires differently with networks, dielectrics, wire twists, strands, copper vs. aluminum, contacts, solder, blah, blah, blah............................
Well when the wires come out of production they all respond totally different and sound nothing alike.]
Let's take Monster for example since they are a huge and well respected company. MCX pre-mades at 10ft. IMO have a degraded sound quality next to a lot of other manufacturers and they tend to be a little bright in the upper high freqs and have a really loud and boomy kind of bass response that during steady low bass passages seems to hang out and continue to boom because the wire is real slow in the lower frequencies.
Now when you step up to the top-of-the-line in M class the M2.2's you get a whole new wire and sound.

The 2.2's IMO have a much smoother top end not showing any signs of brightness or harshness and the soundstage gets much deeper and cleaner and the Bass has a much quicker response to it without ever being boomy or chesty sounding.
I think the 2.2's present a very natural and pleasing listening experience without ever bringing attention to themselves because they simply do not add or take anything away and just pass the signal as clean and as clear so I get to experience all the sonic characteristics of my equipment.

Moving on IMO Kimber Kable which is also a highly respected cable manufacturer has speaker cables that goes well into the high-end realm for cost and my experience with them has been that they tend to exaggerate the highs and mid-range a little bit. Most people that have a speakers that seemed to be a little too laid back or have a rolled off high range might want to look into kimber as you can breathe some life back into the speaker with a simple wire upgrade

Hence the Mating theory.

Transparent is the same way. They make a very musical sounding speaker wire that I really like and I actually that about upgrading to them but I choose monster because I don't care for how the transparent networks handle bass. I feel that transparent rolls off the low end a little too much so they get a really smooth and warm low end and same thing with the highs are a little rolled off as well but I feel that there mid-range is to DIE for but then again if your speakers would not gain from the rolled off highs and smoothed out lows then you will actually end up taking strengths away from the speakers unless they would benefit from that.

So in the end MATING is very crucial to any system for it to perform it's best including electronics, wire, power(line conditioning), moniter, correct set-up, and placement.

Cost should not influence performance.

Correct balance and Mating will result in a balanced cost to you.

[mantis]

The Mantis Theory(old joke for those who are new)

all joking aside,
It's one part of any system that I feel should also be addressed as carefully as you would your speakers,pre amps,amps,receivers,sources,monitors,etc.

[meestercleef]

So are you saying that the oft-cited study done by either Stereophile or Stereo Review is invalid? I believe it was the one that indicated that when "trained, critical" listeners couldn't possibly know which spkr wires were being used, they couldn't tell a difference. I'm not saying wire doesn't make a difference, but I am saying that if you're going to spend $200 for a 1-meter pair of analog interconnects, you'd better have some good gear to justify the price. I encountered an honest, local, authorized dealer a while back. Got a Marantz 2-ch rcvr (list about $400), a Marantz CD changer (list about $300), & a pr of MB Quart bookshelfs (list about $800), actual prices lower. He steered me away from the Vampire Wire he had on display, indicating that I'd get excellent 2-ch sound in my price class (he was right) w/the 14-gauge off-the-spool that they always threw in w/new spkrs & the analogs w/the CD changer. He indicated that I shouldn't waste my time with fancy wire unless I was going for seperates, better speakers, & an "audiophile" single-disc player. He didn't say that the costlier wire was junk, but indicated that the cost/performance ratio was a bad investment in my price range. Isn't it amazing how this topic keeps coming up & is always so easily resolved?;)

[rlw]

Just about any speaker cable will give you reasonable timbre, IME. The differences in "brightness" are typically very small. The one area that differs greatly is bass extension.

Much harder to do is to get enough information to preserve spatial and timing cues: phase. This is the biggest difference I've found - the ability to correctly portray a soundstage.

Even harder: get the bass extension and the phasing correct.

As far as bucks go: I've had Kimber Select KS-3035's in my systems [$3,500 for a 3m pair last time I checked], and they're blown away by TG Audio cables at a 1/10 of the price. Likewise, Audience cables trounce the Selects.

Bottom line: I don't think you should have to strain so hard you get hemmorhoids to hear a difference between wire. If you do have to listen that hard for a difference, you're probably fooling yourself, and should save your money for something more important. But if you easily hear a difference, and want the best performance, trust your ears and open the wallet, and enjoy your improved system.


A review I wrote

[TroyD]

You know, 20 years ago guys were using lampcord on some pretty high end gear and you never heard anyone really clamoring for anything better.

Wire, or the high-end wire market, is largely built on marketing. Sort of like the guys who tell you that you need to spend 10-20 percent of your budget on wire. Who is telling you this? The wire guys that's who. Go to Tweeter and try and get ou the door without hearing 5 sales pitches for Monster wire. Why? That's where the greatest markup is. The high end wire market is a relative newcomer to the audio world. Why? Money. The profit margin in electronics and speakers has shrunk over the years and wire has been the treasure trove of profits for many. This is my opinion, but, it would explain why that for many years, audiophiles used lampcord and thought nothing of it.

Look, I'm not saying that there isn't a difference in wire. I think that the differences are subtle in most cases and that the really expensive wire is sheer lunacy.

BDT

[liv4fam]

Well it's definitely evident that there are a lot of mixed reviews on wire in this forum. It seems that a lot of you believe that wire is all hype and a hoax for salesman to get more of your money.

I believe very strongly in wire as I have heard a lot of different companies wires and interconnects and I can tell a noticeable difference almost immediately. I really have become very fond of Transparent interconnects and yes I feel that they are really expensive but worth the money considering the performance gain you get compared to Monster and Straight.

Lampcord?

I'll admit that I used to own lampcord when I was like 15 years old and I had a pair of Technics rattle boxes hooked up to a Panasonic amplifier. And you know what? It was fine for back then but then I got into Radio Shack 14awg and then Monster XP with the little crimp on Pins because almost all speakers had spring clips or screws.

But look at speakers and electronics now. We are in the digital age now and speakers are extremely clean and clear not like the speakers of the past we they we running Tape Decks, Tuners, Cheapy Turntables(not bashing good tables as I still own one), and reel to reel. There was no high resolution sources nothing that demanded sonic purity. Not that I am saying old speakers weren't good it's just that they do not compare to speakers of today. Speakers of yesterday were made to play loud not clean.

It was the digital revolution in our industry that produced high-end speaker wires and interconnects. Audiophiles spoke out that they needed better cabling so the manufacturers responded. That is what pushes our industry forward is Customers feedback and Ideas.

You know I keep my mind open to all new possibilities of wire and I try everything to see what sounds the best. I heard from a friend that 12/2 Romex (electrical cable) was the best sounding speaker wire ever so before I passed judgment on him I went to try it (even though I already knew that it was going to suck) and what I heard was pretty shocking. It sounded completely sick it was the nastiness tingy and whiny sounding crap I have heard with no hint of any bass response. Horrible!!!!

Same thing goes with the Home Depot wire 12 or 14awg. It sounds absolutely horrible. If any wire oxidizes and turns green after the first time you send current through it immediately put it in the trash as it is no good. I challenge anybody to go listen to 12awg Home Depot wire and then compare or better yet side by side to Monster XP or Liberty 16awg bulk wire which is actually cheaper and bet you that either one will sound better for the same price.

Sorry, it sounds like I am preaching..........................
I have learned over the years that the biggest upgrade you can make is in your wiring not the electronics,sources,or speakers.

I think of wires as the veins in your A/V system....................if the signal can't get there the heart of your sytem is going to die!!!!

[TroyD]

But look at speakers and electronics now. We are in the digital age now and speakers are extremely clean and clear not like the speakers of the past we they we running Tape Decks, Tuners, Cheapy Turntables(not bashing good tables as I still own one), and reel to reel. There was no high resolution sources nothing that demanded sonic purity. Not that I am saying old speakers weren't good it's just that they do not compare to speakers of today. Speakers of yesterday were made to play loud not clean

I beg to differ. I think you need to brush on your history a little bit. Dismiss the DQ-10, but ML has been building electrostats for a long time. The KLH 9 dates back to the mid-sixties. Ever see a pair of the big Dayton Wrights? Old Maggies? Sources? I think that the vinyl crowd would definately take issue with that. Amplification? The sixties were the heyday of tubes. How about a Marantz 7C preamp. Those things are highly sought after and expensive to this day. You need to hear some of this gear before dismissing it.

GOOD hifi has been around for MANY years and contrary to what you may believe it didn't start with the advent of digital sources.

BDT

[rlw]

Originally posted by liv4fam

It was the digital revolution in our industry that produced high-end speaker wires and interconnects. Audiophiles spoke out that they needed better cabling so the manufacturers responded. That is what pushes our industry forward is Customers feedback and Ideas.

Actually, you're quite wrong about this.

The first company to bring high-end wire to the attention of the American audiophile was Polk.

Way back in those crusty old days of analog Japanese audiophiles were enjoying high-end speaker wire and IC's.

Polk was the first company in America to bring high-end wire to the market with an import of a high-end Japanese wire.

Long before "the digital age".

[rlw]

Originally posted by TroyD


I think you need to brush on your history a little bit.
BDT

But why? He's an installer and knows everything about everything.

[TroyD]

Originally posted by rlw


But why? He's an installer and knows everything about everything.

Well, there are a LOT of folks who actually believe that high-end audio started with the proliferation of CD.

BDT

[rlw]

Nelson Pass on Speaker Cables: Speaker Builder, 2/1980


Warning: contains quite a bit of truth and technical detail.

[Zero]

In regards to comparing Home Depote (or Lowes) wire to monster XP, really and truelly - there is no difference whatsoever.

Earlier this year I purchased some 12 gauge wire in 8 foot increments, and compared it to the typical Monster XP cord, an A and B test- No difference at all. I compared Monster XP with a lamp cord, no difference at all.

I do believe wire does improve sound, the Monster reference interconnects improved bass response, etc..... albiet a small improvement.

The MIT wire improved clarity, albiet, a small improvement.

Perhaps my expectations are too high, or my ears simply not tuned as well as others. I can confidently and comfortably attest to the sonic differences in speaker wire, and the improvements it can make.

Whether its worth the cash, well, thats another thing.

[HBombToo]

rlw that is a great document that was well presented.

Q: How many members use 18 guage or less on their rigs?

It was apparent to me that Ohm/FT was very different from the 18/24 guage wires compared to the premium brands. It would be interesting to see what 12 guage stranded for a 1$/Ft from the shack would perform under these test conditions.

I tried to find the electrical specs on the Shack cable but could not.... Does any1 have this info by chance?

HBomb

[rlw]

The Audience cable is something silly like 24AWG, it sounds really good.

[HBombToo]

rlw, i have been patient. if you want a demo I'll split shipping.

no way can any test blind or not, drunk or something... convice me otherwise.

More money is BLOWN on cable than could be justified?

IMO

with respect
HBomb

[rlw]

Originally posted by HBombToo
rlw, i have been patient. if you want a demo I'll split shipping.

no way can any test blind or not, drunk or something... convice me otherwise.

More money is BLOWN on cable than could be justified?

IMO

with respect
HBomb

Huh? I don't quite follow you here. What am I wanting to demo? Am I just being really dense, even for a guy that likes some high-end wire?

[mantis]

But why?he's an installer and knows everything about everything

r/w,
is that nessary?If you don't already know.......when people post comments like that,your offending me as well.

Look his opnion is not a fact...it's what he/WE see in the field ...over the years.WE both have worked for high end companies,got the blessed opportuinity to meet alot of different types of Audiophiles.......really cool I feel.


The speaker comments and wires non the less are natural progression in the industry.Most if not all companies try to improve on there technology.The wide rattle box speaker design compared to the sleeker todays style tower design........in our opnion sound a hell of alot better.

I'll go one step further.....2 speakers from Polk costing around the same and you could account for the times.......SDA-2B'S which I owned........and now my LSi 15's........Without a single standout quality the sda2b's get dominated in everyway possible.The SDA-2b's are nice speakers......sound pretty good.But I even perferred my rt1000p's over them in a side by side demo I conducted in my livingroom.My opnion......

If you think wire doesn't make any difference, then don't buy it.Get what you feel is accurate for the rest of the system you spend all that money on.

Liv4fam and I will continue own search and never ending journey to better understanding.I for one wish wire didn't make such an Impact on sound quality....my bank account could use a break....but I lust after every last bit of sound quality I can squeeze out of my rigs....

[TroyD]

The speaker comments and wires non the less are natural progression in the industry.Most if not all companies try to improve on there technology.The wide rattle box speaker design compared to the sleeker todays style tower design........in our opnion sound a hell of alot better

Uhhhhhhh, Dan, I think that you will find that the slim tower design is purely cosmetic. If they sound better to you, obviously, that's fine but the slim cabinet design is a market driven thing. People want slim and unobtrusive speakers. In performance terms, big cabinets (well constructed) have more pros than cons. Think B&W Nautilus 800's, JM Lab Utiopias

Again, I sense that you and your partner feel that if it wasn't built in the last 10 years (or less) than it certainly can't be worth listening to, which is simply not true.

As far as the RT/SDA/LSi comparison, that's your opinion and you are welcome to it. IMO, I think my RTA's, overall dust the RTi series, but we could make these comparisons all day.



BDT

[TroyD]

r/w,
is that nessary?If you don't already know.......when people post comments like that,your offending me as well

Dan,

The plain fact of the matter is that you and your companion (although he has been far more civil of late) come off like JUST because you installers that you automatically know everything there is to know about audio and that the rest of us are blithering dolts who have no right to hold or express an opinion much less question yours. I say this not to be harsh, I say this because it may help explain (although this isn't the first time this has been said) why folks make the comments that they do.

The fact of the matter is, just because you are installers means little. It doesn't mean that you hear any better or know any more about gear. There are electrical engineers on the forum but they don't claim to know any more than the rest of us about amp design or what have you.

Take it for what it's worth.....

BDT

[rlw]

Originally posted by mantis


r/w,
is that nessary?If you don't already know.......when people post comments like that,your offending me as well.

So I've offended another installer who can't spell, use punctuation properly, and is willing to tell all of us that we don't know what we're talking about.

Wow. Am I going to lose sleep over that, or what?

BTW, I'm not impressed by your lack of credentials. Conserve your keyboard, and stop telling me how long you've thought you were so great.

Oh, and since you addressed your comments to me, you might want to learn how to read. I'm the guy who believes that wire does make a difference. I'm the guy who is a dealer for high-end wire.

But I'm also willing to discuss this topic with others who disagree, and not pound my chest about my vastly superior experience. If what I say/write doesn't make sense on it's own, then no matter how much chest-thumping I do, I haven't helped anybody, including myself, to understand the topic at hand any better.