Organ Music as Receiver / Speaker metric

[nms]

So I'm sitting here, listening to Tocatta and Fugue in D Minor on my little PC speakers, (waiting for a receiver for the 10Bs) and it got me to thinking: organ music has got to be fantastically difficult to reproduce accurately: you have hundreds of voices (pipes) that all need to be generated accurately. Am I right?

If I am, does anybody on here use it as a metric when trying new receivers or speakers?

PS: sorry if this is in the wrong forum, it seemed to fit best here.

Thanks,
nms

[John in MA]

The pipe organ is the most demanding instrument to record and reproduce. I think it's the ultimate test of a sound system's overall limits. Probably not from the perspective of individual voices, as the quality of a speaker's reproduction shouldn't vary much with tonal qualities from stop to stop. At least compared to something like a big band with vocals.

It also probably wouldn't be considered a good measure by the folks into the current audiophile trends of little-girl-with-guitar music. The qualities that make a speaker reveal the sound of the latte being poured in the coffee shop she's singing in might not translate to the cathedral in Passau.

The real key is the dynamic impact and frequency range. A very large pipe organ can go from 8hz to somewhere around 20,000, all the time at tremendous volume. I decided a while ago that average-size speakers are utterly incapable of doing the job correctly, even without trying to hit the low bass notes.

The organ is also a very hard thing to record, since typically a big one is spread all over a very, very large building.

[nms]

You describe hearing a "real" organ very well :-) I went to an organ concert several years ago in a church with a floor-to-ceiling organ (probably about 40 feet tall) and it was astonishing how much sheer power it could put out. It is an experience I will not soon forget!

My current thinking is that organ music would be reeaaally good at quickly finding the power limitations in an receiver or speaker. Then you switch over to some vocal stuff, maybe a little bit of jazz to see how well it images...

Realistically, to reproduce an 8 Hz bass note, you'd need a ridiculously large driver. And at that point, you're feeling the note, not hearing it, so you might as well point it directly at the floor and hold on to something :-)

When I demo receivers Sat I'll make sure to include some organ stuff. I'm looking forward to seeing how well they do.

[John in MA]

I'm not sure there's any kind of speaker that can generate a full 8hz signal. Even the old Electrovoice Patricians with the 30" woofer didn't do that. I wouldn't mind trying, though.

I'm waiting for them to finish restoring this one and make some good recordings:




That console is located at the bottom right corner of the stage in this pic:

[nms]

Wow... I have to ask, where is that?

Hmmm... for 8 Hz, you think a 4.5' driver/woofer would do it? lol

[John in MA]

That's the world's largest pipe organ, in Atlantic City, NJ. 33,000+ pipes, with a full-length 64' pedal stop, ten 32' stops, and set of high pressure 16' reeds running on 100" of wind. The blowers that power it all total around 1,000 horsepower.

The convention center it's in seats 41,000 and was the site of the first indoor helicopter flight.

[Harvey/ Ga]

So I'm sitting here, listening to Tocatta and Fugue in D Minor on my little PC speakers, (waiting for a receiver for the 10Bs) and it got me to thinking: organ music has got to be fantastically difficult to reproduce accurately: you have hundreds of voices (pipes) that all need to be generated accurately. Am I right?

If I am, does anybody on here use it as a metric when trying new receivers or speakers?

PS: sorry if this is in the wrong forum, it seemed to fit best here.

Thanks,
nms

It'll be quite different with the 10B's :D My favorite organist is E.Power Biggs.
My cartridge isn't the greatest, but it makes my 10A's and Smaller Advents growl nicely!!

[nms]

It'll be quite different with the 10B's :D My favorite organist is E.Power Biggs.
My cartridge isn't the greatest, but it makes my 10A's and Smaller Advents growl nicely!!

Unfortunately my first source will be an iPod - digital mp3s :-(

Eventually I plan to get a turntable and a "real" CD/disk player, but not right off the bat. Fortunately, I ripped the tracks myself, so the bitrate is retardedly high.

My parents have a pair of 10Bs that I demoed briefly over thanksgiving with an organ piece, and yes, they shake the room nicely even with a cheap receiver. I'm really looking forward to setting up a decent stereo - I'm realizing what I've been missing all these years!

[George Grand]

I think I'm going to drive down to Atlantic City and see if they'll let me play 96 Tears on that organ. Or Louie, Louie. And the standard stereo test disc for system evaluation should be In-A-Gadda-Da-Vida.


The cutaway AR-3a model pumps away to a 5 cps signal. I've seen that **** with my own orbs. Maybe that's why AR ended up destroying those horny companies.

[George Grand]

Hey I just remembered. All through the 90's I used to go down to Panama City, Panama. Most of the time they were only overnight trips and I got to stay in the Hotel Continental, which was not a dive, but not exactly 5 stars either. Everytime I stayed there, they had a great lounge with a big freaking organ in it. This guy'd come in after dinner with a suit and bowtie, and play that thing. There was all kinds of **** hanging off the walls, and when he stomped on certain pedals, a bass drum up in the corner of the room would go off, or a cymbal would crash. He thought that was the greatest, and watching him have a good time was a real scream along with drinking as much Panamanian rum as possible. The organ? It was brought their to the Continental Hotel in pieces, from America. Atlantic City, New Jersey to be precise.

[John in MA]

It's not playable right now, but they recently opened it for guided tours. If you have five hours to kill it would be worth the trip. Eight chambers stuffed to the gills with bizarre stops. Who hasn't wanted to see what a pileata magna or a tuba gamba looks like?

Most speakers will pump away to an infinitely low frequency, but doing it in a listening situation is another matter. There are some sounds that just can't be done justice by a hifi.

[heiney9]

I the organ's heyday (particularly the theater organ) they were used for Vaudville acts and then silent movies. The organ of that time had to have all kinds of whistles, drums, quacks, etc. to go along with the Vaudville show or silent movies so I doesn't suprise me that the organ you saw (GG) had some peculiar sounds.

We have one of only a handful of atmospheric theaters left in the country right here in Rockford which was just painstakingly restored about 5 years ago to the tune of over 20 million dollars including the the original Barton Theater organ.

Our local Land of Lincoln Theater Society gives tours of the Coronado Theater and the organ as well as all the organ wells which contain all the pipes and gizmos. They also give occasional organ recitals for next to nothing. This organ was/is capabable of making over 100 unique sounds.

Our Coronado is the crown jewel of the city. I'm so glad we decided to rescue and restore it for all in the community to use.

http://www.centreevents.com/Coronado/

H9

[strider]

It'll be quite different with the 10B's :D My favorite organist is E.Power Biggs.
My cartridge isn't the greatest, but it makes my 10A's and Smaller Advents growl nicely!!

I've got one of Biggs' releases on vinyl. I love the music, but it certainly is a torture test for a turntable. Mine does just a good enough job to make it listenable, but not much more then that.

There is an organ at Longwood Gardens in Pennsylvania that they've been restoring forever. Just the sheer size of the thing is impressive, can't wait to hear it. The only pipe organ I've ever heard was in Ocean Grove, NJ. Didn't go into the building where it's housed, but listening to it from a block away I could tell it packs a punch.

[capecodder]

That's interesting about the Atlantic City organ being the "world's largest" since I was always under the impression that the largest was the one in the Wanamaker (now a Lord and Taylor) dept. store in Phila. When I lived in the Phila area, I worked for the Army Corps of Engineers. Our offices were in that building and I saw and heard it in operation a few times. Stunning to say the least.

I googled both organs and the Wanamaker one still claims that title but the Atlantic City one seems to be slightly bigger (more pipes) and also claims the title?? Anyway who gives a crap, they are both monster's and if you ever get a chance to hear one of these babies in full action, you will remember it for a long time.

A few links below on the Wanamaker Organ:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wanamaker_Organ
http://www.wanamakerorgan.com/index1.html
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oqMP1BEoU6g

[John in MA]

Wanamaker's has a few more distinct stops but fewer pipes, although I don't think anyone is positive of the actual count of either organ. A lot of the lists you'll see rank them as 1A and 1B. It has a mammoth string section. In my view the overall lower pedal is lacking because there are lots of bourdons, resultants, and other flabby choices. The rest of it likely has a sweeter tone than Atlantic City.

In scale Atlantic City is larger. Is has larger stops, louder stops, and more unique stops(including some very peculiar choices, like two seperate kinuras.) Tonally, on paper it has a more developed sound with lots of mixtures and full-size hard pedal reeds. The console is larger and features piano-size lower manuals. It also was built all in one shot and remains original, not built up from smaller organs.

Wanamaker people often make a issue of how the listed weight of their organ is twice that of Atlantic City, but I don't think I've ever heard anyone mention why. I get the feeling that a lot of that is because Wanamaker's is more-or-less a self-contained series of instruments with lots of casework and structure. In the Convention Hall, the organ is built into the building's walls and framework (surround sound-style) without anything to point to and say "there's the organ."

I'd love to hear any of these in person. Never have been in the right place at the right time. Actually, one of the world's largest organs is right in Boston and I haven't heard it, either.

[John in MA]

Just remembered, I used a clip from the 1998 ACCHOS CD to demo my Marantz 2600 before I sold it this spring.

http://members.aol.com/gto69ra4/audio/mvid1.wmv

[sucks2beme]

The local church had quite an organ when I was growing up. My mother has even been the organist. There was a large piano and or organ in my mothers house for much of her life. Sadly, that changed just a month ago when she moved out to an apartment to sell her house.

[treitz3]

The church where Dale Earnhardt's funeral was held [Calvary Church, Charlotte NC] at has one heck of an organ. Nice sounds. I could only imagine what those 2 sound like!





From their website...

The Calvary Grand Organ at Calvary Church in Charlotte, North Carolina is internationally renowned as truly one of the great organs of the century! Dedicated in 1990, it is history's fourth largest pipe organ to be built at one time, the largest all-new church organ ever built, and ranks as the eighteenth largest pipe organ in the world.

At a cost of $1.4 million, but now valued at approximately $3.7 million, this organ has 205 ranks and 11,499 pipes, ranging in size from smaller than a soda straw to over 40 feet tall.

And yeah, I don't think a rig could reproduce what that does. Not at all. Would be phat as hell if it could though! :D For those who have never heard what an organ can do....find one and check it out. You'll appreciate it no matter what they play over it IMO.

[bruss]

my house has a huge organ in it

[treitz3]

That ain't what she said. :p :D

[bruss]

Sorry i couldnt resist

[nms]

That ain't what she said. :p :D

oooooooooooooooooohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!

:D:D:D

Well played!

[speakergeek]

Very cool thread. I 've been getting into the organ recently since I've gotten my PB13-Ultra just to see what it can do.
Toccata and Fugue in D minor is great. I have a double CD of J.S. Bach's 24 preludes and fugues Vol. 1 for organ. Just a pleasure to listen to. The Ultra is fantastic with the low end on these recordings. Having lots of fun here. Not really two channel, but a new speaker being tested. The mids and highs sound great, but wow how the lows sound with the Ultra!

[mulveling]

I was listening to some organ music at a fairly high SPL while auditioning the Tannoy Glenair 10's last week. The woofers were visibly moving by LOT
The organ can really dig down to those low frequencies, and yeah that's gotta strain the amp & speakers especially when it's trying to reproduce other instruments/voices & handle dynamic swings all at the same time. They were being driven by a Rogue stereo 90 in ultralinear mode. Sounded great :D

[tonyb]

You guys start singing church songs and I'm gonna have to slap ya.:p

[cfrizz]

Get a recording of http://www.amazon.com/Heavy-Organ-Ca...pd_sim_m_img_2 going to town on the organ with Bach & you will be giving your speakers a work out!

[PeteTy]

just a bit of a note on speakers and music.

the center of the power band of a symphony is about 60hz
typical bell curve 90% of the music within 10% of this

voice centers at about 300Hz

Any organ generaly has a 16' C on the pedal note 32Hz

The low A on a piano is 27Hz
You can hear a pretty clear fundemental if you pluck the low string in the middle. hitting it very near the end gives a lot of overtones, even with a soft felt hammer.

the sound board ona piano is about 4' square minimum so perhaps a bit larger than a doublebass or tympani ... there are some large bass drums
still bigger than any speaker ive seen... Back to the future? perhaps just a prop.

bigger organs go with the 32'C which is 16Hz

there are perhaps 20 organs in the world with 64'C at 8Hz
US naval acadmy chapel has one

the lowest a 12" speaker can go is about 40 hz +-5 db

A 15" speaker is about 30Hz

an 18" speaker goes 20Hz could get these at radio shack without enclosure 10 yrs ago when ppl still talked about HiFi.

there are a lot of 24" speakers out there .
Generally you see them in the 50cuft cabinet behind the screen at the theater.

electrovoice made a 30" and nolonger does.

is it possible to make a subwoofer smaller than electrovoices 30" "woofer" ?

mono is point source 0D sound
stereo is 1d sound direction of source of sound can be found on a line.
5.1, 4channel, 7.1 , are 1D sound with that 1D in a circle, yes a plane figure

The sensaround 8channel that saw 5 movies and omnimax is 2D sound.
you can place a point on a sphere around you but since you are on a floor
perhaps this is really 1.5D for points in a hemisphere.
as a full star map is 2d for the full sphere (most people only see half of that too)

this could be done with 4 channels if the speakers were in a tetrahedron.... somewhat inconvient in rectangular rooms

digital audio exactly reproduces the electronic equavelent of the origional sound. (0Hz-22Khz)

the 3" speakers that came in a pair for $6 that plug in my puter say "compact disc digital audio" right on them. they have a 100% analogue amplifer in them.
the Box says 40w the ice cube power supply says 3W.

the old console tvs usually had 6x9 speakers or bigger
the new ones have maybe 3"

The speakers have gone down in size and quality and up in price for 30 years.
although perhaps the piezo tweeters are a better upper end than the older electro mag horns.

[George Grand]

Which brings to mind the time The Mothers played the Royal Albert Hall during the late 60's. Sometime during the show Don Preston was encouraged to play "the mighty and majestic Albert Hall pipe organ".

They played Louie, Louie.

[John in MA]

I believe the ACCHO is the only one in the world that can play a correct 128' 4Hz resultant, being just one of two with a full-length 64' and I think Sydney lacks the required other pipe.

[mhardy6647]

Recorded organ music is a good test for all components in the chain, as John said.
Piano's also a really good challenge.
For familiarity (a million years of evolution, if not more), the human voice may be the best test for "realism", though.

I am hardly an organ expert, but I was the de facto chair of an organ study committee at our church a few years back. This was an enlightening experience, culminating in the commissioning of this instrument (which is far nicer, and far more organ, than the 1960s-weird-modern sanctuary it was installed in).
http://www.zimmerorgans.com/opus47.htm