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  1. #1

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    Smile Volume on onkyo 805 question

    Hey everyone I just got my 805 and ran audyessy yesterday and it came up with - numbers(levels) on all the speakers. I am a newby but if i increase those to positive(levels) would i not have to turn the volume up as loud? Example the rti8's in the front are -6 db(level) and i have to turn the volume up to -10 db on the receiver what if i turn it up to +6 db(level). ALso what is the difference between realitive and absolute volume? Sorry if this sounds stupid but i want to get the most out of my speakers.:)

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    external amps. Onkyo's are nice but don't has the current draw to make your speakers truly sing.

    engtaz
    engtaz

    I love how music can brighten up a bad day.

  3. #3

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    what do you mean? should I increase the levels?
    Last edited by jaysonbarnett; 04-02-2008 at 02:01 PM.

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    He's just trying to get you to buy an external amp :/ If you have the money then for sure, get a new amp. If not, enjoy what you got.

    I don't think the level of each speaker makes any difference. If you turn up all your speakers then turn down volume by the same amount it will end up the same. The level of each speaker is for balancing. I would leave them at what audyessy set them to.

    As for absolute and relative; absolute is the exact amount of db's the amp is altering the original signal. Relative is just a number, usually starting at 0 and going up. Same as db's just renumbered with meaningless values. It really doesn’t matter what you choose. Whatever you prefer.
    Last edited by Imperitor; 04-02-2008 at 02:39 PM.
    7.1 HOME THEATER:
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    Subwoofer: Mirage Omni S10
    TV: Sharp Aquos 42" 1080p LCD
    Receiver: Onkyo TX-SR805
    Blu-Ray Player / CD Player / DVD Player / Media Server / Game Console / Best money I've ever spent: 60GB PS3

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    thank you man Thats perfect

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    Keep in mind that dB is a relative term to start with, it cannot be absolute. Luckily a system has been established where 0 dB is a specific energy level, so that all dB's represent a certain sound intensity.

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    FYI: I don't think the Onkyo will go + on the speaker levels. Only -. This is to avoid clipping. Think of relative volume as in relation to "reference" level. The Audyssey sets up the levels so that -0db is THX reference level (85dB SPL, 110db peak). Everything is +/- from that reference. I can almost assure you that you will not want to listen to movies at anything higher than -0dB, unless you have very inefficient speakers. On my system, -10 is pretty loud.
    Last edited by billbillw; 04-02-2008 at 09:07 PM.

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    what should the sub be set to. Audyssey set it to -15db so there is no bass at all. So what i am asking is it ok to boost that to -3db or something. Now you are scaring me because my old onkyo receiver i had i had the levels all set to + 5 and +4 on some of the speakers. Have i ruined some of them? I never heard them pop or anything. I have rti8's(front), csi3(center), fxi3(surrounds), rti4s(rears), and a velodyne vrp 1200 Sub.

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    Audyssey doesn't do a good job with setting the sub level. You probably need to bring it up from -15, to about -10. It really depends on the sub and the room, etc.

    I wouldn't worry about how you had it setup with a previous receiver. The Onkyo and Audyssey are just a little different in how they do things. Trust what Audyssey does, except for bass level and management. ie: if Audyssey says full range on the fronts, go back and set them to 50 or 60Hz. Do the same for all channels.
    Last edited by billbillw; 04-02-2008 at 09:06 PM.

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    Like BillBillW said, Audessy always set the sub level low. I have run it 7 times on my 805 to see different changes in slight movement of speakers and it always set my sub to -14 I ended up raising it to -3 for my tastes. It's hard to find the compromise for HT sound and music.
    I left all other level settings alone.

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    Use your ears to set speaker levels if your not happy.

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    thanks guys but i do have to say this new sound is different. By different i mean less highs (with thx cinema setting) before with the onkyo 505 the sound went from high to low extreme. Now it seems to be flat but that could be because i am not use to it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jaysonbarnett View Post
    thanks guys but i do have to say this new sound is different. By different i mean less highs (with thx cinema setting) before with the onkyo 505 the sound went from high to low extreme. Now it seems to be flat but that could be because i am not use to it.
    I'd get away from using the THX settings. They have an equalizer setting that rolls off the high frequencies, which can make things sound dull. I use standard DDEX, DTS, or PLIIx for the most part.

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    run the audyessy and set your subwoofer level to suit your liking... don't get caught up in numbers. sit back and enjoy. if something doesn't sound right.. increase or decrease that speaker level.

    also, play with the crossover settings and speaker size.. run your fronts on small, that will increase the highs to your fronts. I suspect if your system sounds flat, it's because the crossover is set wrong.

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    The Onkyos do not set levels so that 0dB relative = reference. The reason for this is that the supplied mics are fine for level matching, but not calibrated on an individual basis for SPL level readings. The mics are tested in batches to obtain a general correction curve for Audyssey's equalization, but are not tested on a per-unit basis for SPL level. The only way to adjust so that 0dB = reference level is with a standalone SPL meter set to C-weighting, with each channel set to read 75dB (because Onkyo's internal tone is -30dB digitally). Post-Audyssey, you should be able to bump up all channel trims equally to give you the proper reference level at 0dB relative. If you're using the absolute volume scale, all that matters is that each channel is at the same level. This has been confirmed by Chris Kyriakakis of Audyssey. Don't be concerned if all your channel trims are in the negative range. I do strongly recommend buying a $35 SPL meter so you can double-check levels.

    Contrary to what has been said in this thread, Audyssey does an excellent job at setting subwoofer levels and does a very accurate measurement of same. The problem is that it is a far more setup-intensive process than most auto-setup routines, requiring you to properly address acoustic issues in your room before you run it. Primarily, this consists of a few fairly obvious things, including some basic setup theory:

    1) Pull your subwoofer 3-5" from any wall. Though the most common subwoofer setup is corner-loading, placing a subwoofer too close to walls can essentially make the wall surface act like a passive woofer, adding its own coloration to the sound (potentially causing peaks and noise that can throw off the measurements). You would be surprised at the difference in response from just pulling your sub away from the wall a few inches, especially rear-ported subs that can focus energy directly at a wall surface. This also applies to floor-standing speakers; pull them away from the wall a bit if your room allows.

    2) If your seating is near the back wall, pull it out from the wall if you can. This may not be possible in many setups for aesthetic reasons, but it's a good idea. Having your listening position close to room boundaries can create frequency issues with bass that are hard for MultEQ XT to smooth out. The result is an improper detection of the subwoofer level.

    3) The overall level and phase are detected from the first listening position you take a reading from. To ensure that this reading gives the best results, pay attention to a few obvious issues:

    a) USE A TRIPOD and don't be in the room for the readings. I can not stress that enough - JUST DO IT. If you're not using a tripod to mount the mic on, your Audyssey run is nigh worthless. The response can be thrown off severely from low frequencies and noise due to holding the mic, your body being in the listening position, etc. Camera tripods are less than $20 at most photo stores.

    b) Raise the mic just slightly above any headrests on your seats. Reflections from your seating can throw off frequency detection, affecting the high frequencies significantly.

    c) If your seating is within 12-18" from the back wall, position the mic slightly forward in your first seat. This keeps the room boundary from affecting the initial reading.

    4) Run all 8 positions of Audyssey. I don't care if you have 3 seats, a couch, 2 recliners, etc. The more positions you run, the more data Audyssey gets about the effect your room has on response and the better the overall equalization solution will be.

    5) When running the 8 positions with most seating, use the following, in order:
    1 - main seat.
    2 - at least 3' to right of 1, facing screen.
    3 - at least 3' to left of 1, facing screen.
    4 - same as 1, but 3' further into room.
    5 - same as 2, but 3' further into room.
    6 - same as 3, but 3' further into room.
    7 - in center of square formed by 1, 3, 4 and 6.
    8 - in center of square formed by 1, 2, 4 and 5.

    Basically, this pattern:
    6_4_5
    _7_8
    3_1_2

    This is especially crucial for bass response, since the readings set further into the room can help compensate for any initial room-induced peaks at the first three measurement points.

    6) Before you start, set subwoofer gain to about 1/3 of its range and set any on-sub crossover to its highest point. Most of the time, an extreme reduction of the subwoofer channel trim is caused by the gain on the sub being set too high to begin with. Also, if the crossover on the sub is set below its max, this can affect the tone sweeps that are used to initially set the subwoofer's relative level, as well as possibly causing delay of the subwoofer's sound due to the crossover circuitry itself (which can throw off Audyssey's distance detection).

    7) The mics supplied by Onkyo have the mic capsule set very close to the base, unlike other brands with Audyssey that allow a few inches so the base doesn't affect the readings. Again, this is an issue that Audyssey is aware of, per Chris Kyriakakis in the Audyssey thread over at AVS. Because of this, you need to make sure that at each measurement point, no speaker is below 90 degrees from the mic capsule (i.e. sound could be obscured by the base of the mic itself). The mics are calibrated for grazing instance, so they're meant to take off-axis readings... but any extreme angle will give a poor result. In my experience, the best results came from angling the mic forward slightly so that the off-axis angles are similar between all speakers (considering surrounds are usually higher on the wall) and so your three front channels are all within about 80 degrees from the center axis of the mic.

    8) Audyssey's goal is to set the subwoofer for its flattest possible in-room response. Unfortunately, most people have never heard flat response because in-room response of subwoofers is ALWAYS subject to room-induced issues (short of the room being treated with acoustic treatments, bass traps, etc.). Because of this, most people are used to hearing inaccurate bass, initially resulting in a perceived "lack" of bass post-Audyssey, despite the bass being more accurately reproduced. Another issue that can throw off your perception is the lack of mixing standards in music vs. movies. Movies are mixed to a set standard, whereby level matching and flat response in the home will be equivalent to what the audio engineers were hearing during the mix, giving you the intended experience at home and in the theater. Music, however, has no standard. If movies sound great but music sounds thin, use the bass tone control to raise bass centered around 50Hz in the left and right speakers. This is a good way to temporarily improve bass with music without losing your calibrated Audyssey EQ settings.

    9) Audyssey does NOT adjust the LPF of LFE setting (the low pass filter of the LFE channel). This defaults to 80 to comply with THX standards for speaker systems designed for THX (i.e. subwoofers not required to reproduce above 80Hz). You should set this manually to 120Hz so that the full range of the LFE channel is reproduced by your system. Though there is little material above 80Hz in the LFE channel in the majority of digital audio mixes, there are harmonics above 80Hz that affect the perceived tone of the bass. Note: This does NOT affect the redirected bass from the other channels, ONLY LFE.

    10) Even if you've run Audyssey and verified level settings with a SPL meter, REFERENCE LEVEL IS JUST A STARTING POINT FOR TWEAKING. If you like more subwoofer, raise it, even if it puts it outside of the standards for accurate reproduction. It's your system, your tastes, and your ears.

    Having said all of that, there is a known issue with the crossover points set in the Onkyos, wherein any speaker that reproduces below 80Hz is set to full range. Audyssey advised Onkyo to use 40Hz as the threshhold for this (as Denon does), but it was Onkyos call. Not to worry - Any speaker assigned as full range is equalized across its entire range by Audyssey. Then, when you reduce the crossover to a more reasonable setting, the equalization below that point is cast off, so you should still get flat response. To find a good crossover point, set each speaker to about a half-octave above its -3dB point so that you get a smooth transition from speaker to sub. You can find this by getting the -3dB point from your speaker's specs, then multiplying it by 1.5.

    Audyssey goes far beyond normal consumer-grade auto-setup, which makes attention to proper setup far more crucial. Hopefully, the above will help you get the best sound out of it.

  16. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by billbillw View Post
    I'd get away from using the THX settings. They have an equalizer setting that rolls off the high frequencies, which can make things sound dull. I use standard DDEX, DTS, or PLIIx for the most part.
    Actually, there's only a slight difference between the rolloff of THX and of the Audyssey curve used in non-THX modes. In non-THX modes, Audyssey's equalization is set to have a rolloff of highs per Tomlinson Holman's suggestion (i.e the "TH" in THX). In THX modes, it sets Audyssey's equalization to FLAT then applies the THX rolloff, so that the two methods of rolling off highs do not overlap. I find the Audyssey rolloff to be a little crisper with stringed instruments, so I use DPL-IIx w/o THX for everything.

    Of course, this is all only true if you're using the Audyssey equalization. If you're using manual EQ, there's no rolloff in normal modes. Also, if you switch to a THX mode and hit the RE-EQ button, you can turn off the THX rolloff of highs. The only problem is that this is not a persistent setting and it resets when you power cycle, so if that gives you the sound you prefer, you would have to hit RE-EQ every time you turn on the receiver to hear Audyssey in its FLAT mode.

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    this may sound dumb but why would you want rolloff of highs. THis is what makes action movies so nice, but then again i watched hurricane with Denzel Washington last night and i did not once have to change the volume. WIth my old receiver i would really have to sit there with the remote and turn the volume up and down ( action to loud dialogue to soft). Long story short i finally set the remote down and loved it. I have another question about this comment "You should set this manually to 120Hz so that the full range of the LFE channel is reproduced by your system. Though there is little material above 80Hz in the LFE channel in the majority of digital audio mixes, there are harmonics above 80Hz that affect the perceived tone of the bass. Note: This does NOT affect the redirected bass from the other channels, ONLY LFE. ( kuntasensei)
    This does not make sense to me.
    I just have to say i love this forum. cheers to all of you

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    O Yeah Can you explain this as well "0dB relative = reference" I have look on other blogs and i am still unsure what this means. Is 0db the 0 on the volume of the receiver? Is that what THX calls the perfect volume so everything(levels) get set accordinly? I am probably not even close but i hear this alot on these sites, and i want to understand what this means.

  19. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by jaysonbarnett View Post
    this may sound dumb but why would you want rolloff of highs. THis is what makes action movies so nice, but then again i watched hurricane with Denzel Washington last night and i did not once have to change the volume. WIth my old receiver i would really have to sit there with the remote and turn the volume up and down ( action to loud dialogue to soft). Long story short i finally set the remote down and loved it. I have another question about this comment "You should set this manually to 120Hz so that the full range of the LFE channel is reproduced by your system. Though there is little material above 80Hz in the LFE channel in the majority of digital audio mixes, there are harmonics above 80Hz that affect the perceived tone of the bass. Note: This does NOT affect the redirected bass from the other channels, ONLY LFE. ( kuntasensei)
    This does not make sense to me.
    I just have to say i love this forum. cheers to all of you
    1) Movies are mixed for large environments, such as movie theaters. When those same soundtracks are reproduced in a smaller room such as your home theater, there's a vast difference in the way highs end up sounding at the seats. Also, because the room is much smaller, reflections of high frequencies off of nearby walls and objects in the room can greatly affect the sound. Because of this, the sound that you end up hearing is a combination of the actual sound coming from the loudspeaker and the sound from the loudspeaker after being reflected off surfaces and objects. The slight rolloff of the more directional highs (as well as Audyssey's manipulation of frequencies in the time domain) helps to ensure that you're hearing more of the direct sound than you are the reflected and distorted sound. Now, most other products with Audyssey's MultEQ XT let you have the option of using either the Audyssey curve (with the rolloff), a flat curve (which aims for flat response across the whole range, no rolloff), or a curve that makes the other channels match the properties of the front speakers. Onkyos, however, do not give you that option.

    2) Chances are good that your dialogue problems were fixed because your room was affecting the frequency ranges where the human voice lies, which wasn't correctable with your previous receiver. Since Audyssey brings those frequencies in line with the rest of the frequency range, I'm not surprised that dialogue is more consistent. Also, since any smearing of those frequencies were alleviated by Audyssey, you're likely hearing more of the speaker and less of the room's effect on it.

    3) The Low Frequency Effects (LFE) channel (a.k.a. the ".1" in 5.1/6.1/7.1) is a bandwidth limited channel that represents roughly 1/10th of the entire frequency range (hence the .1). It is primarily used for non-directional low frequency rumbles that don't need to be in the main channels. It also receives a +10dB boost during the decoding phase so that the range of LFE can actually extend beyond the other channels (which is why "reference level" equates to 105dB peaks from the main channels and 115dB peak from the LFE channel). The LFE channel is brickwall filtered during mixing so its range stops at 120Hz, so there is nothing above 120Hz in the LFE channel at any time. However, when you get near and above 80Hz, bass becomes directional and starts to sound like it is coming from where your subwoofer is located instead of just generally in the overall mix. The THX conceit was to alleviate that by designing speakers such that all crossovers were at 80Hz and there was a filter to eliminate directional bass above 80Hz in the LFE channel (which is why when you set your 805's crossovers to 80Hz, it says "THX" next to it). The thing is... it's unnecessary. Audio engineers know better than to put directional bass with significant energy in the LFE channel anyway. HOWEVER, the way we perceive sound is largely dependant on the harmonics of a sound... so if you have a sound at one frequency, you will also have harmonics above and below it that affect the perceived tone of that sound. So while you might have most of the sound in the LFE channel actually being below 80Hz, there WILL be sound placed in that channel that sits above that point. It isn't significant enough to affect directionality, but it does lend a tone to the sound.

    A good example: LOTR: The Fellowship Of The Ring has a scene where Sauron is killed that is followed by a monster bass sweep that rests in both the LFE channel and has directional bass in the main channels. That sweep will sound significantly different on a system with the LFE channel filtered at 80Hz than it would on a system that properly passes the full range of the LFE channel. Strictly speaking, the difference in tone may only be noticeable to maybe 1% of people, since the general end-user isn't super critical. But people who come to forums such as this are enthusiasts, and the aim is to have the most accurate reproduction of the intended content. The only way to accurately reproduce the content that is in the LFE channel is to set the low pass filter to 120Hz so it does not affect the content present in that channel.

    Now, your confusion might be the difference between "LFE" and "subwoofer". A lot of people think they're the same thing, but they're not. The subwoofer is the speaker that reproduces the LFE channel... and if any other channels are set with a crossover, it also reproduces the redirected bass from the other channels. This is more a matter of terminology, since you'll often see people say "my LFE is low" when they mean their subwoofer. The LFE channel is summed with the redirected bass from the other channels, then passed to the subwoofer output on your receiver.

    Hope that lengthy explanation answered your questions! 'Cause I'm tired of typing! :D

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    Quote Originally Posted by jaysonbarnett View Post
    O Yeah Can you explain this as well "0dB relative = reference" I have look on other blogs and i am still unsure what this means. Is 0db the 0 on the volume of the receiver? Is that what THX calls the perfect volume so everything(levels) get set accordinly? I am probably not even close but i hear this alot on these sites, and i want to understand what this means.
    THX has nothing to do with reference level. Reference level is the level intended for theatrical reproduction, where the main channels peak at 105dB and the LFE channel at 115dB. It's a guideline that digital audio mixers use to ensure proper playback levels in the theater. However, because reference level is intended for large spaces (i.e. theaters), few people listen at that level in their much smaller home theaters. On receivers with a relative volume control, 0 = reference level if properly calibrated. Then, your volume readout lets you know how far below reference level you are. For instance, if your receiver's volume is at -10dB, that equates to 95dB peaks from the main channels and 105dB peaks from the LFE channel (with 95dB peaks in the subwoofer from redirected bass from the main channels) since it is -10dB from reference level.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kuntasensei View Post
    The Onkyos do not set levels so that 0dB relative = reference. The reason for this is that the supplied mics are fine for level matching, but not calibrated on an individual basis for SPL level readings. The mics are tested in batches to obtain a general correction curve for Audyssey's equalization, but are not tested on a per-unit basis for SPL level. The only way to adjust so that 0dB = reference level is with a standalone SPL meter set to C-weighting, with each channel set to read 75dB (because Onkyo's internal tone is -30dB digitally). Post-Audyssey, you should be able to bump up all channel trims equally to give you the proper reference level at 0dB relative. If you're using the absolute volume scale, all that matters is that each channel is at the same level. This has been confirmed by Chris Kyriakakis of Audyssey. Don't be concerned if all your channel trims are in the negative range. I do strongly recommend buying a $35 SPL meter so you can double-check levels.

    Contrary to what has been said in this thread, Audyssey does an excellent job at setting subwoofer levels and does a very accurate measurement of same. The problem is that it is a far more setup-intensive process than most auto-setup routines, requiring you to properly address acoustic issues in your room before you run it. Primarily, this consists of a few fairly obvious things, including some basic setup theory:

    1) Pull your subwoofer 3-5" from any wall. Though the most common subwoofer setup is corner-loading, placing a subwoofer too close to walls can essentially make the wall surface act like a passive woofer, adding its own coloration to the sound (potentially causing peaks and noise that can throw off the measurements). You would be surprised at the difference in response from just pulling your sub away from the wall a few inches, especially rear-ported subs that can focus energy directly at a wall surface. This also applies to floor-standing speakers; pull them away from the wall a bit if your room allows.

    2) If your seating is near the back wall, pull it out from the wall if you can. This may not be possible in many setups for aesthetic reasons, but it's a good idea. Having your listening position close to room boundaries can create frequency issues with bass that are hard for MultEQ XT to smooth out. The result is an improper detection of the subwoofer level.

    3) The overall level and phase are detected from the first listening position you take a reading from. To ensure that this reading gives the best results, pay attention to a few obvious issues:

    a) USE A TRIPOD and don't be in the room for the readings. I can not stress that enough - JUST DO IT. If you're not using a tripod to mount the mic on, your Audyssey run is nigh worthless. The response can be thrown off severely from low frequencies and noise due to holding the mic, your body being in the listening position, etc. Camera tripods are less than $20 at most photo stores.

    b) Raise the mic just slightly above any headrests on your seats. Reflections from your seating can throw off frequency detection, affecting the high frequencies significantly.

    c) If your seating is within 12-18" from the back wall, position the mic slightly forward in your first seat. This keeps the room boundary from affecting the initial reading.

    4) Run all 8 positions of Audyssey. I don't care if you have 3 seats, a couch, 2 recliners, etc. The more positions you run, the more data Audyssey gets about the effect your room has on response and the better the overall equalization solution will be.

    5) When running the 8 positions with most seating, use the following, in order:
    1 - main seat.
    2 - at least 3' to right of 1, facing screen.
    3 - at least 3' to left of 1, facing screen.
    4 - same as 1, but 3' further into room.
    5 - same as 2, but 3' further into room.
    6 - same as 3, but 3' further into room.
    7 - in center of square formed by 1, 3, 4 and 6.
    8 - in center of square formed by 1, 2, 4 and 5.

    Basically, this pattern:
    6_4_5
    _7_8
    3_1_2

    This is especially crucial for bass response, since the readings set further into the room can help compensate for any initial room-induced peaks at the first three measurement points.

    6) Before you start, set subwoofer gain to about 1/3 of its range and set any on-sub crossover to its highest point. Most of the time, an extreme reduction of the subwoofer channel trim is caused by the gain on the sub being set too high to begin with. Also, if the crossover on the sub is set below its max, this can affect the tone sweeps that are used to initially set the subwoofer's relative level, as well as possibly causing delay of the subwoofer's sound due to the crossover circuitry itself (which can throw off Audyssey's distance detection).

    7) The mics supplied by Onkyo have the mic capsule set very close to the base, unlike other brands with Audyssey that allow a few inches so the base doesn't affect the readings. Again, this is an issue that Audyssey is aware of, per Chris Kyriakakis in the Audyssey thread over at AVS. Because of this, you need to make sure that at each measurement point, no speaker is below 90 degrees from the mic capsule (i.e. sound could be obscured by the base of the mic itself). The mics are calibrated for grazing instance, so they're meant to take off-axis readings... but any extreme angle will give a poor result. In my experience, the best results came from angling the mic forward slightly so that the off-axis angles are similar between all speakers (considering surrounds are usually higher on the wall) and so your three front channels are all within about 80 degrees from the center axis of the mic.

    8) Audyssey's goal is to set the subwoofer for its flattest possible in-room response. Unfortunately, most people have never heard flat response because in-room response of subwoofers is ALWAYS subject to room-induced issues (short of the room being treated with acoustic treatments, bass traps, etc.). Because of this, most people are used to hearing inaccurate bass, initially resulting in a perceived "lack" of bass post-Audyssey, despite the bass being more accurately reproduced. Another issue that can throw off your perception is the lack of mixing standards in music vs. movies. Movies are mixed to a set standard, whereby level matching and flat response in the home will be equivalent to what the audio engineers were hearing during the mix, giving you the intended experience at home and in the theater. Music, however, has no standard. If movies sound great but music sounds thin, use the bass tone control to raise bass centered around 50Hz in the left and right speakers. This is a good way to temporarily improve bass with music without losing your calibrated Audyssey EQ settings.

    9) Audyssey does NOT adjust the LPF of LFE setting (the low pass filter of the LFE channel). This defaults to 80 to comply with THX standards for speaker systems designed for THX (i.e. subwoofers not required to reproduce above 80Hz). You should set this manually to 120Hz so that the full range of the LFE channel is reproduced by your system. Though there is little material above 80Hz in the LFE channel in the majority of digital audio mixes, there are harmonics above 80Hz that affect the perceived tone of the bass. Note: This does NOT affect the redirected bass from the other channels, ONLY LFE.

    10) Even if you've run Audyssey and verified level settings with a SPL meter, REFERENCE LEVEL IS JUST A STARTING POINT FOR TWEAKING. If you like more subwoofer, raise it, even if it puts it outside of the standards for accurate reproduction. It's your system, your tastes, and your ears.

    Having said all of that, there is a known issue with the crossover points set in the Onkyos, wherein any speaker that reproduces below 80Hz is set to full range. Audyssey advised Onkyo to use 40Hz as the threshhold for this (as Denon does), but it was Onkyos call. Not to worry - Any speaker assigned as full range is equalized across its entire range by Audyssey. Then, when you reduce the crossover to a more reasonable setting, the equalization below that point is cast off, so you should still get flat response. To find a good crossover point, set each speaker to about a half-octave above its -3dB point so that you get a smooth transition from speaker to sub. You can find this by getting the -3dB point from your speaker's specs, then multiplying it by 1.5.

    Audyssey goes far beyond normal consumer-grade auto-setup, which makes attention to proper setup far more crucial. Hopefully, the above will help you get the best sound out of it.
    Great info, did you come up with this on your own?
    Casey

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    WOW thats alot of words kuntasensei. I just learned a whole lot!
    7.1 HOME THEATER:
    Center: CSi3
    Front: RTi10
    Surround: RTi A3
    Rear Surround: RTi4
    Subwoofer: Mirage Omni S10
    TV: Sharp Aquos 42" 1080p LCD
    Receiver: Onkyo TX-SR805
    Blu-Ray Player / CD Player / DVD Player / Media Server / Game Console / Best money I've ever spent: 60GB PS3

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    I know you are done with typing so you can answer this LAST question whenever and thank you this is the best explanation i have received on these forums. Do i have the crossovers set right for these speakers. I have all them at 80 hrtz but here are the -3db specs as well. rti8's(front) 80 hrtz Lower -3dB Limit 40Hz , csi3(center)Lower -3dB Limit 65Hz, fxi3(surrounds)Lower -3dB Limit 60Hz , rti4s(rears)Lower -3dB Limit 60Hz , and a velodyne vrp 1200 Sub. I keep hearing to add 20 to the -db level but i just stuck with THX thing(80hertz). Also i will try LOTR part,and try my sub at 120hrtz. DId i make good choices on speakers and receiver combo? I saved every DIME i mean every dime for 2 and half years for this stuff. I am not one who is able to just run out and buy.
    Last edited by jaysonbarnett; 04-03-2008 at 03:39 PM.

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    kuntasensei this explains so much if you do not mind i will post this on alot of sites giving you credit of course. There are alot of sites where they are having debates and this thread will explain it all. YOU FREAKIN ROCK

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    Also has anyone ran a second sub when your receiver has only one pre-out? If so how do you do it?

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    Quote Originally Posted by millerman 3732 View Post
    Great info, did you come up with this on your own?
    It's culled from various sources and filtered through my head, including the Audyssey thread at AVSForum. I did the Audyssey/Setup portion of the 705 FAQ over at AVSForum, and the 805/875/905 are all the same in this regard.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jaysonbarnett View Post
    I know you are done with typing so you can answer this LAST question whenever and thank you this is the best explanation i have received on these forums. Do i have the crossovers set right for these speakers. I have all them at 80 hrtz but here are the -3db specs as well. rti8's(front) 80 hrtz Lower -3dB Limit 40Hz , csi3(center)Lower -3dB Limit 65Hz, fxi3(surrounds)Lower -3dB Limit 60Hz , rti4s(rears)Lower -3dB Limit 60Hz , and a velodyne vrp 1200 Sub. I keep hearing to add 20 to the -db level but i just stuck with THX thing(80hertz). Also i will try LOTR part,and try my sub at 120hrtz. DId i make good choices on speakers and receiver combo? I saved every DIME i mean every dime for 2 and half years for this stuff. I am not one who is able to just run out and buy.
    If you look at the end of my big post, I explain how to come up with the crossover point. Take the -3dB point and multiply times 1.5. That gives you a good half-octave transition before the speaker's natural rolloff. So...
    RTi8 = 60Hz
    RTi4 = 90Hz (but I'd run them 80 - anything over 80 risks localizing the sub)
    FXi3 = see above.
    CSi3 = 97.5 (run it at 80).

    As you can see, the response of that center channel is why I ALWAYS recommend that people go for the larger Polk center channels. 40-60% of the audio in movies with digital soundtracks come from the center channel, which is why it's possibly the most important speaker to blow your money on. Ideally, you want your front three speakers to have as similar a response as possible, so that there's no change in the sound across the front soundstage. For the record, I'm speaking from experience here... I went from a CSi30 up to a CSi40, and the difference in the front soundstage was HUGE. But if that's what you could afford, I think you ended up with a very nice setup!

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    Quote Originally Posted by jaysonbarnett View Post
    kuntasensei this explains so much if you do not mind i will post this on alot of sites giving you credit of course. There are alot of sites where they are having debates and this thread will explain it all. YOU FREAKIN ROCK
    The best thing you can do is simply link to this thread, where the information is already posted, so this forum gets the traffic (and possibly some new posters). :)

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    Quote Originally Posted by jaysonbarnett View Post
    Also has anyone ran a second sub when your receiver has only one pre-out? If so how do you do it?
    Running multiple subs is as easy as using a Y-splitter on the sub out (which reduces signal strength slightly, but you can compensate with the channel trim or the gain on the subs). HOWEVER, multiple point sources for bass can create cancellation issues if the subs are placed apart from each other and are reproducing the same signal. The general wisdom is that the best way to prevent this is co-location, or putting the two subs directly next to each other. This also helps because you only have one distance/delay setting for the subwoofer, and two subs at different distances can play hell with keeping phase in line between the subs and speakers. If you co-locate, Audyssey does a fine job of figuring out the best distance/delay and equalizing for the placement.

    The other method is referred to as "stereo subs", where you basically turn the subwoofer output off, turn the left and right mains to full range, then use the left and right channel pre-outs to run each sub, with the subs placed next to the left and right speakers and using the on-sub crossover to limit output. In that case, putting the subs apart isn't as big of an issue because they're not reproducing the same signal (and therefore won't cancel each other out).

    You also have the true nuts, who will have both stereo subs and a separate sub for LFE only. These people clearly have way too much money and time. :D

    The Onkyos don't, but some receiver models actually have separate outputs for dual subs, with each one getting its own Audyssey tweaks to keep everything in phase, even with placement of the subs apart. Also, Audyssey and SVS are releasing a standalone unit just for subs that can handle dual subwoofer equalization at a far greater resolution than the MultEQ XT in receivers... but the price looks fairly steep.

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