Free Shipping on All Orders 1-866-764-1801

Vist our Online Store
+ Reply to Thread
Results 1 to 14 of 14
  1. #1

    Member Sales Rating: (0)

    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Toronto, Canada
    Posts
    196

    Default Turn Table < CPD ???

    This will be a very newby type question but here goes...

    I have had my stock Project Debut 3 TT for about a month now, I am using a Project Phonobox 2 for my phono stage. I know that there are many factors that go into analogue sound, the deck, the cartridge, the tone arm, the stylus, then you have all the regular issues down the line like the preamp and the amplifier. Luckily my question can be narrowed down, I think. I have noticed that when listening to brand new vinyl (can't compare old records as conditions vary) the sound is not as rich or involving or dynamic as the exact same CD recording played on my Cambridge 640CV2. I assumed it would have been the other way around. Iím wondering, does this sound correct and if so I guess that means I need to upgrade my TT. The first thing that comes to mind would be the cartridge but I have absolutely no experience in this area, does anyone have any suggestions?

    Thanks
    Mains - Chario Constellation Delphinus
    Subs - Rel T5 x 2
    Amplification - Denon POA S-10 Mono Blocks
    Pre Amp - BAT VK-3i
    CD - Raysonic CD128
    SACD/DVDA- Denon DVD 5910 w/ Underwood Level One Mod
    TT - Pro-Ject RPM 9.1 w/ Ortofon 2M Black Cartidge, TT Weights Super Ring
    Phono Stage - Jolida JD9 w/ Mods

  2. #2

    Member Sales Rating: (10)

    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Safely in my Faraday cage
    Posts
    1,840

    Default

    Slippery slope.

    You can start upgrading the TT with all the bits and pieces, dollar by dollar, month by month over the next two years. . . actually think you have found nirvana, and swear to it too. . . .

    Then you hear someone else's digital rig so you. . .

    Chuck the whole thing in the Flea Market and buy a sexy new CDP.. . . . add a tube buffer, outboard DAC, silver cables, new pre, dollar by dollar, month by month over the next few years. . . .actually think you have found nirvana, and swear to it too. . . .

    Only to chuck it all in the Flea Market and pick up the next TT you see.

    Aint it fun! Masochists.

  3. #3

    Member Sales Rating: (9)

    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    Arizona and Portland
    Posts
    654

    Default

    Cartridges are wear items, consumables, like tires. Your's could be shot.

    They vary wildly in quality. A thousand dollars doesn't come close to the pinacle (at least in price).

    You may be comparing a very good CDP to a very cheap cartridge. You didn't mention brand or model.
    The world is full of answers, some are right and some are wrong. - Neil Young

  4. #4

    Member Sales Rating: (4)

    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Posts
    3,539

    Default

    It could just be bad vinyl. Since you say it's brand new, I'm guessing that means a recent pressing & many of those aren't very good. There's more art in mastering vinyl and a lot of that talent has retired. The result is tons of crappy recordings.

  5. #5

    Member Sales Rating: (28)

    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Right here.
    Posts
    10,412

    Default

    From your post I am guessing that the cartridge is also new, but is it aligned correctly? Tracking force ok? Lots of variables that can make a difference in sound from great to crap.
    _________________________________________________
    ***\\\\\........................... My Audio Journey ............................./////***

    2008 & 2010 Football Pool WINNER
    SOPA

    Thank God for different opinions. Imagine the world if we all wanted the same woman

  6. #6

    Member Sales Rating: (2)

    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    South Carolina
    Posts
    702

    Default

    Ricardo is spot on. Even a $3000 cartridge will not perform if it isn't set up properly. It would also be helpful to know what cartridge you are using and if your phono stage is set properly for that cartridge.
    Lots of Carver stuff and a pair of LSi9's

  7. #7

    Member Sales Rating: (0)

    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Toronto, Canada
    Posts
    196

    Default

    Thanks for the responses,

    The Debut three comes with an Ortofon OM 5E cartridge pre-installed. It's an MM cartridge and my phono stage is set to MM. As for the records I have been testing, I've done A-B comparisons with Radiohead's OK Computer, Kid A and In Rainbows. All three sound better on my CDP as I mentioned in the OP. I have been looking around a bit and found that several people that own the Debut 3 have upgraded the cartridge. Not sure which one to go with. I'm thinking something under $500.

    Thanks

  8. #8

    Member Sales Rating: (2)

    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    South Carolina
    Posts
    702

    Default

    I asked The Needle Doctor folks for a cartridge recommendation for my AR, and their strongest suggestion was to go with an Ortofon MM2 (or 2MM) bronze at $350 or black at $600. Haven't heard either, but maybe some others here have heard it. Your cartridge alignment may have been factory set, but could well have changed during shipment. A very slight change in verticle or horizontal tracking angle or stylus pressure can make a huge difference in sound.
    Lots of Carver stuff and a pair of LSi9's

  9. #9

    Member Sales Rating: (0)

    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Toronto, Canada
    Posts
    196

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by skipf View Post
    Your cartridge alignment may have been factory set, but could well have changed during shipment. A very slight change in verticle or horizontal tracking angle or stylus pressure can make a huge difference in sound.
    How would I be able to measure stylus pressure or determine my tracking angle? I know in my initial set-up I adjusted the counterweight on the tone arm as specified for the cartridge provided. Beyond that I couldnít say for sure if the cartridge itself was installed properly or if it was moved out of place during shipping. Anyway I could determine this for myself?

  10. #10

    Member Sales Rating: (0)

    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Chicago, IL
    Posts
    387

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Bass_Pedal View Post
    Thanks for the responses,

    The Debut three comes with an Ortofon OM 5E cartridge pre-installed. It's an MM cartridge and my phono stage is set to MM. As for the records I have been testing, I've done A-B comparisons with Radiohead's OK Computer, Kid A and In Rainbows. All three sound better on my CDP as I mentioned in the OP. I have been looking around a bit and found that several people that own the Debut 3 have upgraded the cartridge. Not sure which one to go with. I'm thinking something under $500.

    Thanks
    Bass Pedal:

    I have a Pro-Ject Xpression TT, which is comparable to the Debut. I wasn't blown away by vinyl at first, especially with new recordings. However, I experienced a big improvement after upgrading the cartridge to the Sumiko Blue Point No. 2 and getting a Pro-Ject Speedbox.

    By the way, I have OK Computer on both CD and vinyl and the latter sounds better. However, many of my other newer albums sound better on CD.
    Last edited by cstpeter; 06-08-2008 at 08:14 PM.
    Von Schweikert VR4-jr
    Valve Audio Predator
    Denon DVD-2900
    PS Audio Digital Link III w/Cullen Level IV Mods
    Pro-Ject Xpression w/Blue Point No. 2
    Graham Slee Special Edition 2
    PS Audio UPC-200

  11. #11

    Member Sales Rating: (9)

    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    Arizona and Portland
    Posts
    654

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Bass_Pedal View Post
    How would I be able to measure stylus pressure ?
    There are scales for that but I've never owned one. I set the counter-weight until the cartrige just floats above the vinyl. Then set the scale to zero. Then dial in the proper force for that cartridge. All done.
    The world is full of answers, some are right and some are wrong. - Neil Young

  12. #12

    Member Sales Rating: (0)

    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Toronto, Canada
    Posts
    196

    Default

    Thanks guys,

    I'll take a look at some cartridges in my price range. The Sumiko Blue Point No. 2 is a moving coil cartridge which I don't think will work on the Debut 3 unless I change the platter. Which I am sure I will do at some point, until then I will check out some reasonably priced moving magnet cartridges for an upgrade.

  13. #13

    Member Sales Rating: (0)

    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Posts
    614

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Bass_Pedal View Post
    Thanks guys,

    I'll take a look at some cartridges in my price range. The Sumiko Blue Point No. 2 is a moving coil cartridge which I don't think will work on the Debut 3 unless I change the platter. Which I am sure I will do at some point, until then I will check out some reasonably priced moving magnet cartridges for an upgrade.
    Before changing anything, I would try different tracking forces. The manufacturers recommended setting is a ballpark setting at best. Try going lower and higher from your current setting. My guess would be lighter based on your description.

    It is an iterative process to determine the optimum setting for each cartridge/tonearm/TT. Only make small changes and listen to the results. You will reach a point where it will all snap into place. This will be a fairly narrow window so remember to make SMALL changes.

    I am not sure why you would need to change the platter to use a different cartridge? Maybe there is something I am not aware of with Project TTs. Please elaborate why you feel you would need to change the platter for another cartridge.

    I looked at the user manual for the TT. Did you get a cartridge alignment jig with the TT? If not, I would not recommend touching the current location or changing the cartridge until you have one. I see Project has the 'Pro-Ject Align it' accessory. This is what you would need to check your current or install a new cartridge.

    If you purchased this at a local store, check with them to see if they can give you a TT 101 class so you are more familiar with TTs.

    Let us know if changes to the VTF (vertical tracking force) take you closer to your goal.

    JM
    All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed, second it is violently opposed and third, it is accepted as self evident.
    Arthur Schopenhauer

  14. #14

    Member Sales Rating: (0)

    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Toronto, Canada
    Posts
    196

    Default

    I read that there is an issue with the aluminum platter, apparently it wrecks moving coil cartridges. I don't have a cartridge alignment tool, when I do get a new one I plan on taking the TT back to the store I purchased it to have it installed, they have a very large service department. I am now going to make a few minor adjustments to the tracking force as suggested, I will post the results.

    Thanks

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

     

Similar Threads

  1. turn table help
    By tecmo04 in forum Electronics
    Replies: 4
    Last Post: 09-10-2007, 08:33 PM
  2. Garrard Turn Table
    By MillerLiteScott in forum 2 Channel Audio
    Replies: 16
    Last Post: 04-03-2007, 01:49 PM
  3. I Need Turn Table Advice
    By ben62670 in forum 2 Channel Audio
    Replies: 27
    Last Post: 01-20-2007, 10:10 AM
  4. Turn Table
    By dudeinaroom in forum 2 Channel Audio
    Replies: 5
    Last Post: 11-27-2006, 05:00 PM
  5. Turn table
    By MSALLA in forum Electronics
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 11-14-2006, 11:05 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts