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  1. #31

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    John K and William, please refer to H9's sig.....

    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not."--Nelson Pass

    ...and then kindly stifle.
    'Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end."

  2. #32

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    Quote Originally Posted by zingo View Post
    I don't know if you are going to ever get a fully scientific, double blind study with subwoofer cables, or any other audio equipment for that matter. It requires too much time and money; plus benefits too few people. Most of the audio reviews I have read were written from the opinion of a single person, let alone 20 different people listening to and for the same thing, and most people believe those without hesitation. A non-scientific test can still produce results that are accurate and somewhat conclusive. No, the sound of different subwoofer cables has not been scientifically proven, but neither has the sound of a lot of different equipment piece from the HIFI world that audiophiles accept. The audio hobby is a place where incomplete science and opinions meet, and that's going to leave us with no clear resolutions anytime soon.
    Nonsense. If the difference really exists, it can be demonstrated. Why would it disappear under testing, where you are only using your ears? How can a non-controlled test produce results that are accurate and conclusive?

    I would think it would benefit the cable makers greatly if they could show that there is a difference.

    You are right there will never be a consensus, but that's only because those that believe ignore any evidence that says otherwise. Just like any other religion. That's what expectational bias is all about, only looking for the evidence that supports your claim (like anecdotal reports) and ignoring everything else.

  3. #33

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    Quote Originally Posted by F1nut View Post
    John K and William, please refer to H9's sig.....
    Great, a quote from a manufacturer. And I said nothing about measurements, just a simple demonstration.

  4. #34

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    Quote Originally Posted by WilliamM2 View Post
    Nonsense. If the difference really exists, it can be demonstrated.
    If that's your only hang up, go to your local high end audio store. They would be more than happy to demonstrate various cables for you.

    If you can't hear the difference on high end gear and a treated room, maybe it's time to trade everything in for a HTIB.
    "He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you." Friedrich Nietzsche

  5. #35

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    Quote Originally Posted by Face View Post
    If that's your only hang up, go to your local high end audio store. They would be more than happy to demonstrate various cables for you.

    If you can't hear the difference on high end gear and a treated room, maybe it's time to trade everything in for a HTIB.

    Still nothing...

  6. #36

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    William, William, William.........there's pages and pages of testimonials right here at CP from people who once believed as you until they tried different cables and heard the difference.

    Your comment, "That's what expectational bias is all about, only looking for the evidence that supports your claim (like anecdotal reports) and ignoring everything else.", applies to your position more than anyone else's. DOH!!!

    I still find it curious why you and Johnny feel you have to shove your view point down everyone's throats. Do you think that you're some sort of super hero, out to save audiophiles from the big bad cable companies or are you just pissed that your ears are failing you?
    'Political Correctness'.........defined

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  7. #37

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    More anecdotal evidence. Can't imagine why they heard a difference, in sighted testing, after being told/reading exactly what they would hear...Do you even know what expectational bias is?

    And then of course the attack on my hearing abilities. Next you can attack my gear. Why? Because you have nothing else.

  8. #38

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    Do you even know what expectational bias is?
    Of course I do. You are the poster child.
    'Political Correctness'.........defined

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  9. #39

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    Look I get it, you can't hear a difference and I believe that you can't. I can, but you refuse to believe that. The problem you have accepting that is on you, no one else.

    You still haven't answered the burning question, Why do you feel you have to shove your view point down everyone's throats?
    'Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end."

  10. #40

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    You still haven't answered the burning question, Why do you feel you have to shove your view point down everyone's throats?
    I don't know. Why do you?

  11. #41

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    Quote Originally Posted by WilliamM2 View Post
    More anecdotal evidence. Can't imagine why they heard a difference, in sighted testing, after being told/reading exactly what they would hear...Do you even know what expectational bias is?

    And then of course the attack on my hearing abilities. Next you can attack my gear. Why? Because you have nothing else.
    Join the club. Some love to attack those who don't subscribe to their way of thinking. You must have the kind of equipment they approve of and believe it when they tell you this cable, that cable, this IC, that IC, better sound, cleaner power,...... Oh, and God forbid you should ever openly disagree with them or ask where proof might be found for such claims (not everyone is this way, though).

    It just makes me laugh how people will go to major lengths to justify their actions and purchases. I don't care if a burning bush told them that XX brand of ICs or cable produces better sound. They should be happy with what the bush told them and not try to convert those who pissed on the bush instead, since that's what is really needed when a bush is on fire (not listening to it and making purchases based on what you believe it said).
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  12. #42

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    I don't know. Why do you?

    See that's the big difference between us. I'm not and you are.
    Last edited by F1nut; 08-14-2008 at 09:09 PM.
    'Political Correctness'.........defined

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  13. #43

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    Well this was 100% unhelpful.
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  14. #44

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    I rib William, and others. I feel its hard to believe that anyone can't hear a difference in cables, but I know that without a doubt when I swap cables it can make a big difference. I think a lot is equipment, setting, and the individual. I get constant praises from nearly everyone who has used my cables. I truly believe that some people just can't hear a difference. It would be nice if I couldn't but I do. I suggest that people try a few different kinds of of cables, and I don't mean grab three or so bottom of the line cables from your local brick, and mortar stores. This doesn't mean you have to spend $600 to get decent cables that make a difference. I did this with some Straight Wire Encore II's, PBJ's, and Acoustic Research. This little experiment came after I had insulted a few members for being rich dummies who had more money than intelligence. Well I had to eat my words. Open your mind. Try some decent cables, and listen to your own ears. Not what I say, William, F1nut, or any others. Its good to get advice from others on what to try, but in the end its what your ears hear. Then comes the bugger. Changing your gear can effect what cables sound better in your system.
    Happy hunting in the quest for better sound
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  15. #45

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    Wrong Tug. No one is attacking the nonbelievers, quite the opposite. The nonbelievers are the ones who feel it's necessary to interject their beliefs anytime someone asks a queston about cables.

    Now, I know you're still upset that some folks told you that you're not getting the most out of your 1.2TL's by running them with an AVR, but the truth is, you're not. However, that's no reason to run around with a chip on your shoulder.
    'Political Correctness'.........defined

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  16. #46

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    Quote Originally Posted by F1nut View Post
    Now, I know you're still upset that some folks told you that you're not getting the most out of your 1.2TL's by running them with an AVR, but the truth is, you're not. However, that's no reason to run around with a chip on your shoulder.
    Please tell me that this is not true. Big SDA's and a receiver
    Please. Please contact me a ben62670 @ yahoo.com. Make sure to include who you are, and you are from Polk so I don't delete your email. Also I am now physically unable to work on any projects. If you need help let these guys know. There are many people who will help if you let them know where you are.
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  17. #47

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    Quote Originally Posted by WilliamM2 View Post
    Nonsense. If the difference really exists, it can be demonstrated. Why would it disappear under testing, where you are only using your ears? How can a non-controlled test produce results that are accurate and conclusive?

    I would think it would benefit the cable makers greatly if they could show that there is a difference.
    This a very true statement, so I'll say it again.

    I've said it before and I'll say it again...........our ears attached to our brain is more sensitive and process information better than any piece of electrical equipment can. Until one truly believes that then you'll be relying on measured specs or in your case lack of measured specs.
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass

    Pass Aleph 30; Eastern Electric Mini Max; Adcom GDA600; MIT S3/Z Pc; SDA 1C; Squeezebox; Tubes add soul!

  18. #48

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    Quote Originally Posted by ben62670 View Post
    Please tell me that this is not true. Big SDA's and a receiver
    I don't see how 200 wpc of high current/voltage power is really that big an issue with some here. I drop the unit into pure direct, it combines all the burr brown DACs and I have a decent 2ch system. It honestly sounds better to me than the NAD 2400 and 7400s I had before the Denon.
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  19. #49

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    Quote Originally Posted by F1nut View Post
    Wrong Tug. No one is attacking the nonbelievers, quite the opposite. The nonbelievers are the ones who feel it's necessary to interject their beliefs anytime someone asks a queston about cables.

    Now, I know you're still upset that some folks told you that you're not getting the most out of your 1.2TL's by running them with an AVR, but the truth is, you're not. However, that's no reason to run around with a chip on your shoulder.
    I don't have a chip, but you keep telling yourself I do. My issue is that my setup sounds great to me and you know nothing about me or what I've used in my system, yet you keep telling me I need to do this, that, etc.

    And as for attacking... Read back in the posts to the one talking about how people with such poor hearing... That was an attack on a member who states they don't hear a difference. Most non-believers ask for proof, not attack. You just don't get it, but I am well aware you never will.
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  20. #50

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    Quote Originally Posted by tugboat View Post
    Most non-believers ask for proof, not attack. You just don't get it, but I am well aware you never will.
    This is where you don't seem to get it. Read all the post you see about guys with decent to better systems, and their reviews of what they have used in their systems. F1nut, and others have been in this hobby for many years. They have heard many different nice systems with many different components. Myself and many others have gone out to HiFi stores, and listened to very very expensive gear that costs more than any car I have ever owned. There is no "proof" that would be like me having proof that one type of food tastes better than another. Open your mind and try some different stuff out. BTW what are you using for a receiver?
    Ben
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  21. #51

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    Quote Originally Posted by tugboat View Post
    I don't see how 200 wpc of high current/voltage power is really that big an issue with some here. I drop the unit into pure direct, it combines all the burr brown DACs and I have a decent 2ch system. It honestly sounds better to me than the NAD 2400 and 7400s I had before the Denon.
    HAVE YOU TRIED IT!!!! If you haven't then you have no basis for your argument or POV. Just because you "don't see" how that can be doesn't mean it's not true.

    My only point in any of this debate is many times those who argue or (to put it your way) are attacked are those who have never tried to hear a difference. To those people I say, BS................try it and if you still can't discern a difference then great..............end of discussion. But many, many times people are just saying there is no difference when they have never even tried to experiment with cables and in your case other higher end gear.

    If you haven't genuinely tried it then one has no valid opinion on the matter.

    H9

    P.s. I never have and never will tell someone who has tried to hear a difference and can't that they are wrong or full of crap or whatever it is we cable Nazis say and do. ;)
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass

    Pass Aleph 30; Eastern Electric Mini Max; Adcom GDA600; MIT S3/Z Pc; SDA 1C; Squeezebox; Tubes add soul!

  22. #52

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    Quote Originally Posted by zingo View Post
    I don't know if you are going to ever get a fully scientific, double blind study with subwoofer cables, or any other audio equipment for that matter. It requires too much time and money; plus benefits too few people. Most of the audio reviews I have read were written from the opinion of a single person, let alone 20 different people listening to and for the same thing, and most people believe those without hesitation. A non-scientific test can still produce results that are accurate and somewhat conclusive. No, the sound of different subwoofer cables has not been scientifically proven, but neither has the sound of a lot of different equipment piece from the HIFI world that audiophiles accept. The audio hobby is a place where incomplete science and opinions meet, and that's going to leave us with no clear resolutions anytime soon.
    I am going to agree with him in a blind study I bet more than half the people could not tell the difference. I would probably be one of them.
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  23. #53

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    Quote Originally Posted by heiney9 View Post
    This a very true statement, so I'll say it again.
    It's true because you said it again? It's not you know, measuring equipment is far more sensitive than the human ear. For instance you can measure differences between all cables with measuring equipment. Differences in inductance, capacitance, resistance, etc. You can tell them apart every time. Yet ask someone to tell them apart with their ears, and they fail miserably, every time.

  24. #54

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    Quote Originally Posted by WilliamM2 View Post
    Yet ask someone to tell them apart with their ears, and they fail miserably, every time.

    You see, that's where you are wrong. I've never had a problem telling the difference between cables, yet you refuse to accept that fact. And your theory that seeing the cable makes a difference on the outcome is false. I've tried more expensive cables than I use now, in MY system and they didn't sound as good as what I use now. Believe me, I wanted them to, but the ears don't lie, they didn't.

    You're also wrong that measuring equipment is more sensitive than the ear/brain connection. Science hasn't scratched the surface trying to figure that one out.
    'Political Correctness'.........defined

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  25. #55

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    Quote Originally Posted by heiney9 View Post
    I've said it before and I'll say it again...........our ears attached to our brain is more sensitive and process information better than any piece of electrical equipment can. Until one truly believes that then you'll be relying on measured specs or in your case lack of measured specs.
    I never understood these types of comments. I would consider our ear very much inferior to electrical equipment. For example our ears on average can't hear differences in sound levels smaller then 2-3db. My $40 radioshack spl meter can measure differences smaller then this. Look at low frequencies, our ears can't hear anything below ~20hz for most people, yet they are easily measurable. At 20hz our ears can't hear spls below ~70db, yet they are measurable. Then there are psychoacoustic affects which affect our ears but not equipment, such as the hass (precedence) effect or masking. With the hass effect the equipment would be able to determine what sounds were original and which are reflected, but our ears combine the reflections w/ original source.

    Quote Originally Posted by F1nut View Post
    Wrong Tug. No one is attacking the nonbelievers, quite the opposite. The nonbelievers are the ones who feel it's necessary to interject their beliefs anytime someone asks a queston about cables..
    That depends, look at this thread again. IMO comments such as "It's amazing how people wish such poor hearing can be so into this hobby." "If you can't hear the difference on high end gear and a treated room, maybe it's time to trade everything in for a HTIB." and "or are you just pissed that your ears are failing you?" can be construed as insulting for those who don't hear differences.

    I don't understand why a "non-believer" can't give their opinion when someone asks for a cable recommendation? The OP asked if a sub cable should be used from source to pre, and it was recommend that no any cable will do. The believers said no there is a difference, and the argument ensued. Why are the believers opinions any more valid than anyone elses? Furthermore why is it not ok for JohnK to state his opinion as fact, but cable believers can?

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    Quote Originally Posted by tugboat View Post
    I don't have a chip, but you keep telling yourself I do. My issue is that my setup sounds great to me and you know nothing about me or what I've used in my system, yet you keep telling me I need to do this, that, etc.

    And as for attacking... Read back in the posts to the one talking about how people with such poor hearing... That was an attack on a member who states they don't hear a difference. Most non-believers ask for proof, not attack. You just don't get it, but I am well aware you never will.
    All I have to do is read your posts, the chip jumps out. Ask anyone else since you won't take my word for it.

    I don't believe I've told you that you need to do anything with your system. What I said was that you're not getting the most out of those speakers. Big difference.

    As for the attack stuff........LOL, you'll know it IF I attack someone.
    'Political Correctness'.........defined

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    Quote Originally Posted by WilliamM2 View Post
    It's true because you said it again? It's not you know, measuring equipment is far more sensitive than the human ear. For instance you can measure differences between all cables with measuring equipment. Differences in inductance, capacitance, resistance, etc. You can tell them apart every time. Yet ask someone to tell them apart with their ears, and they fail miserably, every time.
    Damn dude you are so one tracked. OK you can measure some stuff, but what about all the other stuff that science hasn't figured out how to measure? How many scientist have said the world is flat? What about the number of stars? Till Galileo made the telescope it was thought there were only 2200 or so. Being stuck on what can be scientifically proven is just plain ignorant. So someone having a tiny mind, and focusing only on what can be proven (so far) you are locking yourself into a teeny tiny world.
    Rock on.


    To people with no experience with different cables hook up with a local Polkie, and go see for yourself before you jump on the ignorance wagon. If you don't hear a difference great, if you do you will have opened up your audio experience to a different level. If you try different cables on mass market gear don't expect much. As for these half assed studies who are the people in the studies. 90% off the population think that Bose makes killer HT stuff. Who are you?
    Ben
    Please. Please contact me a ben62670 @ yahoo.com. Make sure to include who you are, and you are from Polk so I don't delete your email. Also I am now physically unable to work on any projects. If you need help let these guys know. There are many people who will help if you let them know where you are.
    Thanks
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    Quote Originally Posted by heiney9 View Post
    HAVE YOU TRIED IT!!!! If you haven't then you have no basis for your argument or POV. Just because you "don't see" how that can be doesn't mean it's not true.

    My only point in any of this debate is many times those who argue or (to put it your way) are attacked are those who have never tried to hear a difference. To those people I say, BS................try it and if you still can't discern a difference then great..............end of discussion. But many, many times people are just saying there is no difference when they have never even tried to experiment with cables and in your case other higher end gear.

    If you haven't genuinely tried it then one has no valid opinion on the matter.

    H9

    P.s. I never have and never will tell someone who has tried to hear a difference and can't that they are wrong or full of crap or whatever it is we cable Nazis say and do. ;)
    I have never told anyone what they should or shouldn't do or have or use. I am talking about being told my system isn't good enough when I never asked for an opinion. Still it keeps coming up. I have no doubt that there are much better amps out there, but I don't give a damn. I like my system, so why can't it be left at that. Just because others use amps with more power doesn't mean I have to as well.
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    William, you buy your Mono price cables and be happy and I'll buy my MIT cables and be happy. That's really all that matters here and sharing an opinion. I'm not trying to convince (you are in a very adamant way) I'm trying to encourage experimenting with gear and cables. Nothing more nothing less. Anything else you get from my posts you are doing your own reading into what I'm saying and manipulating it to fit your argument.

    H9
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass

    Pass Aleph 30; Eastern Electric Mini Max; Adcom GDA600; MIT S3/Z Pc; SDA 1C; Squeezebox; Tubes add soul!

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    Quote Originally Posted by tugboat View Post
    I have never told anyone what they should or shouldn't do or have or use. I am talking about being told my system isn't good enough when I never asked for an opinion. Still it keeps coming up. I have no doubt that there are much better amps out there, but I don't give a damn. I like my system, so why can't it be left at that. Just because others use amps with more power doesn't mean I have to as well.
    Well that's not right, and since I've never said that then it doesn't apply to me.

    H9
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass

    Pass Aleph 30; Eastern Electric Mini Max; Adcom GDA600; MIT S3/Z Pc; SDA 1C; Squeezebox; Tubes add soul!

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