Question on amplifier use and hookup

[Dawgfish]

Hello everybody,

I'm a longtime lurker, but new poster. I have been really enjoying the wealth of knowledge I have read here on this board. I am picking up a set of RTi12s tomorrow to use as my front speakers in an home theater setup. These will replace my current set of RTi10s which I am going to move to my sorround speakers, and use a set of RTi8s for back sorrounds (I'm also using a CSi5 as my center and have two subs, a Klipsch Sub-12 and a Polk DSW pro 500). I am currently using an Onkyo 806 as my reciever. Needless to say, with this set-up, I think I'm going to need an external amp to really get the most out of the speakers. I have narrowed my choice for amps to either the Emotiva UPA-7 (125w x 7), or MPS-2 (200x7).

My question is this, when I hook up either one of these amps to my Onkyo 806 and use the reciever as a preamp, can I still use the recievers amplifeier and bi-amp my speakers? In other words when you hook up an amp to the reciever, does the recievers amplifier still output wattage via the speaker terminals, or does the recievers amplifier section shut off when you connect the reciever to an amp? If the reciever's amplifier will still work when connected to an external amplifier, I am thinking of buying the Emotiva UPA-7 for about $650, and bi-amping my speakers using both the reciever and the UPA-7. If this does not work, than I'll have to pony up for the MPS-2, which will give me more power, but will cost about $1700 new. Obviously I would like to go the reciever plus UPA-7 route if possible. Are there any problems with this set-up? What do y'all think? Thanks in advance for your help!

[Sherardp]

I think youre in for a treat. The 12s will definitely open up more once you amp them. You can bi-amp them off the receiver and amp if you like just remove the jumpers from your 12s. Run speaker cable from AVR to top posts(highs) on the 12s. Then run speaker cable from power amp to bottom set of speaker posts(lows). However I found that once you install the amp bi-amping isnt necessary. Youre going to need interconnects so check out SignalCable.

[Dawgfish]

Thank you very much Sherardp. I really appreciate the advice!

[George Grand]

I believe you are going to need a "Y" connector or two, in order to split the pre-out signal. You'll need to send half to the power amp and half back into the receiver's onboard amp.

[Sherardp]

no Y connector is needed if he is bi-amping off the avr and the receiver. Simply remove the jumpers and install as instructed in my previous post.

[George Grand]

If he wants to use that Onkyo as a preamp feeding output to external amplifiers, and use the power amps aboard that Onkyo to bi-amp, I see "Y" connectors in his future. The amps aboard the Onkyo won't have a signal to amplify once you yank that jumper out if you don't feed them something in its place.

[nm4710]

I can't speak for the RTi12's...but I run a set of RTi10's off of an Emotiva LPA-1 (essentially the same as the UPA7). More than enough power off the LPA-1 to drive the RTi10s to bliss at loud volumes in my large room. I've tried bi-amping and found the receivers (Sony STR-DG1000, Onkyo 805, and the list goes on)...they added nothing. In fact, I felt a few of them actually made the RTi10's sound worse than when just plugged into the LPA1. I suspect part of that may be due to differing gain structure between the receiver's amp and the emotiva.

Bottom line, I suspect the UPA-7 will be more than enough to drive your RTi12s. I don't think you will need to bi-amp...and I think you will probably only deteriorate sound quality by trying that. If for some reason you are obsessed with wattage (as many here are), then perhaps look at the XPA-5.

[Sherardp]

If he wants to use that Onkyo as a preamp feeding output to external amplifiers, and use the power amps aboard that Onkyo to bi-amp, I see "Y" connectors in his future. The amps aboard the Onkyo won't have a signal to amplify once you yank that jumper out if you don't feed them something in its place.

From the receiver preout he will run a single rca to the power amp. Remove the jumpers off the speaker. Run speaker wire from power amp to bottom set of speaker posts on speaker. From AVR run set of speaker wire from front left of right to top set of speaker posts on speaker. Thats all he has to do. No Y splitters needed.

[Dawgfish]

Thanks everybody for all of the advice. Based on the advice I am getting, I am no longer leaning towards bi-amping the setup using my reciever and the UPA-7. I think I am going to try adding a UPA-7 or something similiar (I may add some combination of 2, 3, and 5 channel amps depending on what kind of deals I can get, but I really like what I'm seeing with UPA-7) and see how that goes. If I still feel I want more power in the future than I'll add a second UPA-7 and bi-amp with that.

On a different note, I found a couple of good deals locally on a couple of amps and was wandering what everybody thought about these. The first one is a B&K ST125.2 (I believe 125WX2). The second is a Parasound HCA-806 (80wX6). I can get both of these together for slightly less than the UPA-7. I was thinking if I bought these two amps, I could use the B&K to power the front RTi12s, bridge one channel on the Parasound to bring the output of the brideged channel to 140w and use that to power the center channel (I would turn the gain down on the center channel to more closely match the out put of the B&K's 125 wpc), and use the remaining 4 channels of the Parasound to power the sorrounds, and back sorrounds. Do y'all think the two amps would compliment each other's sound well, or would I be better off just buying the UPA-7 with it having 7 even, sonically balanced channels (compared to mixing two amps)? Thanks in advance for the advice.

[Sherardp]

Outlaw M2200 Monoblock amps may be able to give you the sound you want. Very nice amp, run cool, and they gave me great sound on my 12s before I went to icepower. check them out www.outlawaudio.com

[Kex]

... Do y'all think the two amps would compliment each other's sound well, or would I be better off just buying the UPA-7 with it having 7 even, sonically balanced channels (compared to mixing two amps)? Thanks in advance for the advice.

I'm no expert on the topic, but IIRC the Onkyo 806 has some quite sophisticated Audyssey calibration features. I would expect that calibrating correctly would eliminate any problems with different amps being used for different channels.

B&K and Parasound are not "entry" level so there is probably a good argument to be made in their favor when compared to Emotiva (or Outlaw, for that matter). I did personally try the Emotive LPA-1 a while back and was very disappointed, to say the least, with the results of a blind listening test (compared to a simple harman/kardon receiver). This might be due to a number of factors, of course, including the limitations of my speakers (RT55 and CS400, so not garbage either, just not LSi level). Still, with all the hype surrounding Emotiva, I would be careful of expecting too much from their entry level "bargains". YMMV.

[curved]

Very nice setup by the way.....

Personally, I would get a 7-channel and power all speakers with that. Don't use the AVR to bi-amp - gain levels and sound characteristics could vary too much.

If you spending that kind of money, I would look at a few other options......Parasound, Rotel, ICEpower, etc

[Sherardp]

Whatever route you decide to take, check out Audiogon and save yourself some bucks.

[Dawgfish]

It looks like I have a few decisions to make, but that's part of the fun! I'm still leaning towards the UPA-7, but I am checking the other stuff out and I'm open to a good deal on whatever may come up. Thanks Sherardp on the wealth of suggestions for amplifiers. I have been looking at your suggested amps and they all look really nice. I have been checking out Audiogon and love the fact that there is a site that tells me what I should be paying for a used amp and other audio equipment. That really helps out a lot!

Thanks Curved for the kind words. So far I've been really happy with the setup. I never thought I would be able to afford a set of RTi12s, but I found a good deal on a new in the box pair and jumped on it. I had to drive 6 hrs one way to pick these things up, but it was totally worth it! I have been really, really enjoying these speakers so far. I loved my RTi10s (and still do), but there is so much more midrange detail with the RTi12, especially watching tv and with movies. I'm hearing details with the 12s that I never heard before. Last night when my I came home from work, I noticed the neighbors were away, so I quickly ran in and popped in the David Gilmore "Remember that Night" Bluray and cranked the system. I have to say that the Onkyo 806 was driving the 12s much better at high volumes than I thought they would. I also haven't ran the Auddysey calibration for my new set-up and plan on doing so tonight. That should make a difference. Still though, I know I won't be getting the most out of my set-up until I am using external high current amps, so here I am now asking all of these questions.

Kex, I appreciate your advice. What you said about your experience with the LPA-1 has kind of dapened my enthusiasm a little for the Emotiva. Unfortuantely I spent most of my budget for my system on the speakers and reciever. Before I found the good deal on the RTi12s, I had always planned on just using the Onkyo to power everything with the idea that I may get an external amp sometime down the road. Now with the speaker set up I have, I know I'm going to need a good amp or amps to power the system more to it's potential. I'm still leaning towards trying the UPA-7 due to current budget constraints, but again, if I could find a good deal on a better quality amp or amps, I'll certainly jump on that. If I do end up with the UPA-7, I figure it has to power my system better than just using my reciever, and if doesn't turn out to be as good as I expect, I could use it on my downstairs system (Yamaha V-661 reciever, Monitor 70 fronts, Monitor 60 sorrounds, Monitor 50 rear sourrounds, CS2 center, JBL 12 inch, 500 watt sub) and upgrade to a better amp or amps on my primary system when I can better afford it.

Thanks again to all for all of the advice. If any of you happpen to see a good deal on good multi-channel amp and are not interested in it yourselves, please let me know about it! ;-)

[Hawkeye]

I'd suggest 2 or 3 Channel amp from B&K for the front and let the AVR take care of surrounds.

Save a little more money, get a B&K and get a real look at what a quality higher end amp can do for you. The B&K will give you a taste of what Hi end audio is all about. I have a 200 X 5 Channel B&K in my HT. Used it with an AVR I had until I went totally seperate. I also had a 220 X 2 B&K for just the 2 fronts when I had a 7.2 in the HT. Have had it for 9 years now with no complaints.

Do some research here on the B&K and other sites. Solid equipment and good service if ever needed. I think your amp dollars would go much further in this direction.

Gordon

[Dawgfish]

Hawkeye,

Thanks for the advice. I will actually be purchasing a B&K ST125.2 (125w X2) in a couple of weeks. I found one out of state, but the owner will be driving down my way in a couple of weeks on his way to FL and has agreed to stop and meet me along the way so I can pick up the amp. I would like to get another amp to power the other five chanels, but could use the B&K and the reciever to power everything until I get another amp as you suggested. I am also eyeing a Rotel RB 985 (100w X5). It looks like the combination of the B&K and the Rotel RB 985 may be a good one. I know the B&K is a really good amp, but what do y'all think of the Rotel RB 985? I can get both of these for about what I would pay for the UPA-7. I aslo have my eye on a Parasound HCA-806 (80w X6) with the intent that I could bridge two channels of the Parasound and use that to drive the center channel and use the remaining 4 channels to drive the sorrounds and back sourrounds (while using the B&K to drive the fronts). Between the Rotel and Parasound, which amp would y'all think would be the better choice?

[Hawkeye]

I don't have a lot of experience mixing amps on different channels. I would think it is important to voice your amps the same way you voice your speakers. If you have a series of speakers which are timbre matched, why would you not want to closely timbre match your amps also?

I'm sure others will chime in one way or the other.

Gordon

[Kex]

... I will actually be purchasing a B&K ST125.2 (125w X2) in a couple of weeks. ...

If this were me, I think I would get the B&K for the RTi12 mains and use the Onkyo until I found another B&K for two or three more channels. The RTi8 should not be difficult for the Onkyo to drive, especially as rear surrounds, but you could always get a third B&K for them too if you found a crazy deal at some point in the future.

[cfrizz]

All of the brands of amps suggested here are good choices, can't go wrong with any of them. I have had Rotel, Parasound & Outlaw & now have a Sunfire. All have done what they are supposed to do, amplify the sound.

Also, don't short change the back speakers as people tend to do to save money, they also improve with more power whether for music or movies.

The biggest difference is in the amount of power that they put out. Don't just think about what you need today, but also think about what you might need in the future. If you think someday you might step up to the LSI series or another 4ohm speaker the 200wpc will drive them better then a lower wpc amp. (others will debate this)

I started out with a 2 channel Parasound, added an Outlaw monoblock for my center, until I finally bit the bullet & got my 5 channel Sunfire. If I had known what a difference the amp would make, I would have gotten a 5 channel from the get go & been done with that part of my system.

I don't know whether you simply want to experiment with different amps for the fun of it or not. But I would suggest saving more money & getting a 7 channel amp up front with enough power for now AND in the future.

Enough people here have used & recommended Emotiva for me to trust their recommendations on the brand.

Go with your first choice of the UPA-7 & I think you will be very happy.

[Dawgfish]

It sounds like I have some things to think about based on everybody's responses. I do like the idea of having the amps timbre matched like the speakers, that's why I was considering the UPA-7 originally. It just seemed to me like having 7 channels that are balanced in regards to timbre and sound quality would be the way to go. The reason I was considering mixing amps was I have been hearing conflicting opinions on the Emotiva, so I shopped around to see if I could find another 7 channel amp that fit my current budget ($800.00 or less). So far I have found no other 7 channel amps new or used that fit my budget. I did find good deals on many 2, 3, 5, and 6 channel amps though, so I was just wandering if mixing these different amps would give me satisfactory results, or more importantly better results than going with the single Emotiva UP-7.

I can definitley see both sides of this issue. I'm a long time flyfisherman and guide and I know from experience the difference the right equipment makes. To me, for a long time there was a huge difference between the upper level rods and the medium level rods out there. Most fisherman couldn't tell the difference between the two, but an experienced caster could definitely tell a huge difference. I'm just wandering if I'm at the level yet in my music/home theater experience where the difference between a true audiophile amp and one at a more moderate level would make enough difference to warrant the extra money. I know from my flyfishing experience that going ahead and paying for the good stuff was definitely worth it. Lately though lots of manufacturers in the flyfishing industry started to see the writing on the wall with the economy and started to produce moderately priced rods that are every bit as good as the top of the line equipment from just a year or two ago. I was just wandering if Emotiva was one of these companies that was producing good to excellent quality stuff and was pricing their products to get a foothold in the industry, especially with today's economy. The thing about all of this is this, I'm a tinkerer by nature. Wether it's flyfishing gear, motorcycles, drums, home theater equipment, etc, I can never leave well enough alone because I'm on a never ending quest to make all of the stuff in my hobbies better and better. Looking at it that way, it may be best for me to go ahead and buy the UPA-7, because more than likely I'll want to get a higher-end amp sometime in the future anyways no matter what I get now. I can always move the UPA-7 to my other system. I can defintiely see LSis in my future as well. Man, this looks like it's never going to end and frankly I couldn't be happier!

[cfrizz]

LOL! Yeah you're going to fit in around here just fine!:D

[Kex]

... I can definitley see both sides of this issue. I'm a long time flyfisherman and guide and I know from experience the difference the right equipment makes. ...

Therein lies the question: what type of person are you? You can compare a V6 Hyundai to a V6 Mercedes-Benz or BMW and think the Hyundai looks better on paper than either (more bhp, official 0-60 acceleration ...), but Benz and BMW owners know why their cars are vastly superior to the Hyundai in every way possible. Others will have bought the Hyundai and consider Benz and BMW owners too stupid to spend more money on a lesser car. Emotiva sure looks good on paper, but is it really that good in reality? (No flaming please: I'm not trying to say Emotiva is the Hyundai of the audio market!)

You could always try the Emotiva though, and send it back if you don't like it. It's not really a free trial though, since you have to pay the shipping of a heavy, bulky item ... so you end up with a fairly costly one month rental. I personally found the Emotiva not only lacked power for an external amplifier, but it also lacked polish (but that was the fault of the LMC-1 pre/pro, mostly). I can be quite demanding sometimes with my gear, but I sincerely do not think I was asking for too much in this case. If you pay a lot of attention to detail, as you obviously do with your fishing equipment, you may well have the same reaction as I did ...

[Dawgfish]

Kex wrote "If you pay a lot of attention to detail, as you obviously do with your fishing equipment, you may well have the same reaction as I did ...". Yeah I have to admit you have a good point there. I tend to be demanding on my equipment also. I have some things to think about, but it should be fun. I'll let y'all know what I end up doing and give y'all the results. Thanks for everyone's advice.