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  1. #1

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    Default MY SETUP: Speaker Level or Line Level?

    Here is my setup

    POLK
    sub: PSW350
    frnt: TC60i
    cntr: CS1
    srnd: RC60i

    My amp has three crossover points for sub: 100, 150 & 200
    If I use LINE level setup then I am limited to these frequency cut-offs

    If I use Speaker Level (which I did with my old 6600 speakers), I have the full range of the subs crossover nob on the back :-)

    I am leaning towards the Speaker Level setup.

    D.
    Sing... Worship... Live the Life

  2. #2

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    Hmmm, that's a good question. Though normally I would recommend the line level hookup, it seems that in your case the speaker level could be the way to go. Have you tried both ways to see which one worked better for you?
    In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence.

    The best way to enjoy digital music reproduction is to never listen to good analogue reproduction.

  3. #3

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    With my old setup (the RM6600s) the speaker level worked better for certain because without it there was about a 25Hz gap in the bass when I did the bass test (sweeping from high to really low to see how seamlessly the transition is from fronts to sub). When I used the speaker-level, I was able to eliminate it completely by using the subs crossover knob.

    This is what I will likely do with my new TC60i speakers - hopefully, the TC60i speakers will sound much fuller than the RM6600 satellites did.

    Also, my amp/rcvr doesn't use the sub-out when listening in stereo, so the only way to get full range on stereo CDs etc. is to use the speaker-level set-up.

    Dealing with the LFE signal... If I read correctly, when one selects "no sub" the rcvr sends the LFE signal to the fronts anyway.
    Sing... Worship... Live the Life

  4. #4

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    What kind of AVR do you have?
    In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence.

    The best way to enjoy digital music reproduction is to never listen to good analogue reproduction.

  5. #5

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    I am guessing that line level may sound better (and this is only a guess) and here's why.

    When you hook up via line level the sound above the crossover goes to the speakers, the sound below the crossover goes to the sub. Granted the crossover is a slope, not a cliff, but many times speakers sound better when not required to try and reproduce deep bass they can not handle anyway.

    When hooked up via the speaker level inputs, the sound below the crossover goes to the sub, but the full range signal goes to the speakers. If you have larger tower speakers that are great for deep bass, this may not be an issue, but your if your speakers are not designed for deep bass, the mids may suffer as your speaker tries to reproduce the deeper bass in complex material.

    There are certainly situations where either could sound good, but many times even with a little higher crossover like 100hz - line level is the way to go.

    Michael
    Mains.............Polk LSi15 (Cherry)
    Center............Polk LSiC (Crossover upgraded)
    Surrounds.......Polk LSi7 (Gloss Black - wood sides removed and crossovers upgraded)
    Subwoofers.....SVS 25-31 CS+ and PC+ (both 20hz tune)
    Pre\Pro...........NAD T163 (Modded with LM4562 opamps)
    Amplifier.........Cinepro 3k6 (6-channel, 500wpc@4ohms)

  6. #6

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    Quote Originally Posted by treitz3 View Post
    What kind of AVR do you have?
    Forgive my ignorance, but what does AVR stand for?
    Sing... Worship... Live the Life

  7. #7

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    Quote Originally Posted by McLoki View Post
    When hooked up via the speaker level inputs, the sound below the crossover goes to the sub, but the full range signal goes to the speakers.
    I'm not sure that is the case... my front channels go directly from my rcvr to the sub, then out to the speakers - I set the crossover on the SUB and I thought that the sub only sends to the front speakers the frequencies above the crossover.

    Dwaine
    Sing... Worship... Live the Life

  8. #8

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    AVR = Audio Video Reciever. (i.e. - what kind of receiver do you have?)

    The crossover built into almost all subs is low pass only. That means it filters what the sub gets, but thats it. Speaker level in to speaker level out is a pass through. To verify though - you may have to call the sub manufacturer.
    Mains.............Polk LSi15 (Cherry)
    Center............Polk LSiC (Crossover upgraded)
    Surrounds.......Polk LSi7 (Gloss Black - wood sides removed and crossovers upgraded)
    Subwoofers.....SVS 25-31 CS+ and PC+ (both 20hz tune)
    Pre\Pro...........NAD T163 (Modded with LM4562 opamps)
    Amplifier.........Cinepro 3k6 (6-channel, 500wpc@4ohms)

  9. #9

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    Quote Originally Posted by McLoki View Post
    AVR = Audio Video Reciever. (i.e. - what kind of receiver do you have?)

    The crossover built into almost all subs is low pass only. That means it filters what the sub gets, but thats it. Speaker level in to speaker level out is a pass through. To verify though - you may have to call the sub manufacturer.
    I have a Panasonic SA-HE200 http://www2.panasonic.com/consumer-e...del.SA-HE200.S

    My sub is the POLK PSW350 http://www.polkaudio.com/homeaudio/p...oofers/psw350/

    QUOTE from the PSW-350 page: "Adjustable lowpass crossover, phase switch and volume control allows perfect blending with any main speaker."

    Is this bad for the front speakers?

    D.
    Sing... Worship... Live the Life

  10. #10

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    No harm at all to the speakers. From the speakers point of view - it is exactly like you just hooked them up to your AVR. (without the sub) It is just that some speakers sound better if they do not have to reproduce deep bass signals. (and that was the point of my original message)
    Mains.............Polk LSi15 (Cherry)
    Center............Polk LSiC (Crossover upgraded)
    Surrounds.......Polk LSi7 (Gloss Black - wood sides removed and crossovers upgraded)
    Subwoofers.....SVS 25-31 CS+ and PC+ (both 20hz tune)
    Pre\Pro...........NAD T163 (Modded with LM4562 opamps)
    Amplifier.........Cinepro 3k6 (6-channel, 500wpc@4ohms)

  11. #11

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    Okay, I get it.

    Well that explains why I have the option of connecting the front speakers directly from the AVR w/o having to go out from the sub (AVR ->SUB & ->speakers).

    I guess the 100Hz, 150Hz & 200Hz crossovers do not work when the "no-sub" is selected otherwise the AVR wouldn't be able to send the low frequencies - soooo, the setting is extraneous when speaker level is used... (just thinking out loud).

    One more question, why does the sub even need to have the higher frequencies blocked? i.e. what is the purpose for a low pass crossover? Is it so that I don't have both the TC60i(s) and the sub doing the same frequencies (say 110 for example)? And if so, wy is that a problem?
    Sing... Worship... Live the Life

  12. #12

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    Low bass is usually handled by woofers as the move alot of air but move in and out relatively slowly. Mids and highs are usually handled by progressivly smaller speakers as to reproduce their frequencies - they have to vibrate very quickly.

    You only want the woofer to try to reproduce the frequencies it is designed to. Just like the crossover in your speaker sends the appropriate signal to each of the drivers in your speaker. The crossover in your subwoofer limits the signals to only those that the subwoofer was designed to handle.
    Mains.............Polk LSi15 (Cherry)
    Center............Polk LSiC (Crossover upgraded)
    Surrounds.......Polk LSi7 (Gloss Black - wood sides removed and crossovers upgraded)
    Subwoofers.....SVS 25-31 CS+ and PC+ (both 20hz tune)
    Pre\Pro...........NAD T163 (Modded with LM4562 opamps)
    Amplifier.........Cinepro 3k6 (6-channel, 500wpc@4ohms)

  13. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by McLoki View Post
    Low bass is usually handled by woofers as the move alot of air but move in and out relatively slowly. Mids and highs are usually handled by progressivly smaller speakers as to reproduce their frequencies - they have to vibrate very quickly.

    You only want the woofer to try to reproduce the frequencies it is designed to. Just like the crossover in your speaker sends the appropriate signal to each of the drivers in your speaker. The crossover in your subwoofer limits the signals to only those that the subwoofer was designed to handle.
    Very helpful! I understand now and I understand the benefit of the sub not trying to do both the really low and the mids.

    Thanks for all your help.

    Dwaine
    Sing... Worship... Live the Life

  14. #14

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    Quote Originally Posted by McLoki View Post
    The crossover built into almost all subs is low pass only. That means it filters what the sub gets, but thats it. Speaker level in to speaker level out is a pass through. To verify though - you may have to call the sub manufacturer.

    So what is the point of of using the subs speaker level out to the front speakers?

    Why not just connect directly from the AVR to the front speakers?

    Do the Polk DSW Pro series operate this way?

  15. #15

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chameleon2 View Post

    So what is the point of of using the subs speaker level out to the front speakers?

    Why not just connect directly from the AVR to the front speakers?

    Do the Polk DSW Pro series operate this way?
    Not all recievers have an LFE output. Also, some people prefer to keep everything in the analog domain. (For LFE to work, it has to digitise the signal, apply the crossover, then convert it back to analog for the speakers. Not a big deal if your source is digital already, but may not be preferred if your source (coming into your preamp) is analog.)
    Mains.............Polk LSi15 (Cherry)
    Center............Polk LSiC (Crossover upgraded)
    Surrounds.......Polk LSi7 (Gloss Black - wood sides removed and crossovers upgraded)
    Subwoofers.....SVS 25-31 CS+ and PC+ (both 20hz tune)
    Pre\Pro...........NAD T163 (Modded with LM4562 opamps)
    Amplifier.........Cinepro 3k6 (6-channel, 500wpc@4ohms)

  16. #16

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    So, if your receiver doesn't have a sub-out or LFE, and you make a speaker level connection to the sub, there is little reason to make the sub-out to front speaker connection.
    In other words, connect the front speakers directly to the receiver.
    Last edited by Chameleon2; 12-26-2008 at 03:32 PM. Reason: clarification

  17. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chameleon2 View Post
    So, if your receiver doesn't have a sub-out or LFE, and you make a speaker level connection to the sub, there is little reason to make the sub-out to front speaker connection.
    In other words, connect the front speakers directly to the receiver.
    It is one in the same. By using the sub speaker out to the front speaker(s) you don't have to try and get two speaker wires into the AVR's speaker out binding posts. With many AVR's this can pose a challenge with correct guage speaker wire.

  18. #18

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    Default Re:MY SETUP: Speaker Level or Line Level?

    Hi,

    It's good question. Though normally I would recommend the line level hookup, it seems that in your case the speaker level could be the way to go.

    You only want the woofer to try to reproduce the frequencies it is designed to. Just like the crossover in your speaker sends the appropriate signal to each of the drivers in your speaker. The crossover in your subwoofer limits the signals to only those that the subwoofer was designed to handle.

  19. #19

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    Bummer for me to learn about the full frequency range from the sub still going to the front speakers.

    Guess I'll need to buy an Onkyo (706?) in order to cutout the low frequencies then.


  20. #20

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    Default Learn Something new everyday

    Quote Originally Posted by McLoki View Post
    AVR = Audio Video Reciever. (i.e. - what kind of receiver do you have?)

    The crossover built into almost all subs is low pass only. That means it filters what the sub gets, but thats it. Speaker level in to speaker level out is a pass through. To verify though - you may have to call the sub manufacturer.
    I never knew this - like the OP - I thought the sub crossover shut off the lower frequencies to the front speakers. Now I know why I had such problems with my monitor 10s and Polk Sub either amplifying a certain frequency way too much or cancelling it out. This was before I used the LFE out. It sounded like Bass players were playing every third note really loud.

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