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  1. #31

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    Quote Originally Posted by SolidSqual View Post
    The DCX is only used as a crossover (and is transparent as hell, especially the modded version). My BAT does the preamplifier duties. As they say anyway, the proof is in the pudding.
    Quote Originally Posted by SolidSqual View Post
    He has no idea what he's talking about. Let your ears be your guide. My DCX modded or unmodded has never left me wanting. I do recommend the Cullen mod if you get a chance though. The increased clarity and dynamics are worth it.

    If you do need some substantiation on the part of professional reviewers then just google. These speakers place way out of their price range. Which is exceptional since they have competition like Gallo Ref 3. Unfortunately for Unc, the Gallos can't hold a note compared to the Emmys. I've heard both in my home and there's just no comparison.



    Look, I'm not trying to knock your setup, I'm trying explain why someone might buy a Wyred vs an unmodded Icepower amp vs another amp.

    Anyhow, you seem a little confused about the DCX is doing, so let's start there:

    Your BAT pre provides input switching, tells the DAC in the DCX how loud to go and imparts it's own sonic signature. It's a stupendous piece of gear that could probably drive the tweeters in the CS2's with no amp at all, if you were that crazy. But in this setup, all it's driving is the A/D of the DCX. I'd disagree with GV#27 and wouldn't even say that it provides gain... Semantics, but it more "sets" gain; the DAC & opamps in the DCX provide the gain.

    The DCX takes the signal from the BAT and turns it into digital bits, does some fancy algorithms on them (crossover, limiting, gain,eq, etc), then its DAC changes those bits back into analog signals. At this point your SOURCE is the bits coming off the algorithms and your PRE is the DAC in the DCX. This goes into some $0.59 opamps (or $2 opamps with the upgrade) and out to the amp. Gain is determined by the DAC; It is set by the digital algorithms and the level provided by the BAT.

    Now, the DCX is an amazing piece of engineering for $250... but it's also a stack of cheap chinese parts. I've had two fail on me- one had a channel die (coincidentally the one that was driving a 500asp; the rest were driving a bryston) and the other needed a ribbon connector re-seated when it got hot. Google that and you'll find hundreds of people that have had DCX's fail. The pro guys that I hang with either won't touch them or always keep a spare on hand. Those opamps should have no trouble driving 8kohms, but if you're worried about it, some kind of buffer might be a good choice and 50kohms is gonna be a lot easier.

    Anyhow, back to the original topic:
    I look at the Wyred mods and say "Meh". The test is always your ears, but nothing there is addressing the major failings of the stock ICEpower module. Like Zero said, it still sounds like icepower and maybe you like that, maybe you don't. I like icepower just fine on gallos, my "ghetto gallos" and some other experiments I've been playing with. It sounds absolutely horrible on my Jordans & Fostex. Regardless, I'm looking forward to seeing the results of that shootout between the D-sonic & Wyred- I've been itching to start clipping parts off my modules, but have been focused on other things lately.

  2. #32

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    Quote Originally Posted by SolidSqual View Post
    They were referring to the extreme mods that cost like $3k. They said its not worth it for the relative returns. Many companies offer mods for sections of the DCX that aren't utilized by the Emmys.

    And, No. I'm not changing to the CS1 anytime soon. I love my Emmys and am staying with them until I get a bigger room.

    the 2496 is $299...and mods that cost $3000 to it???

    i wish some real world user will start posting their review on the CS1...
    my 7.(1x4) HT setup
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  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by unc2701 View Post
    But in this setup, all it's driving is the A/D of the DCX. I'd disagree with GV#27 and wouldn't even say that it provides gain... Semantics, but it more "sets" gain; the DAC & opamps in the DCX provide the gain.
    Fair enough.I forgot about the A/D conversion in the DCX and my comment was based on a typical analog active xover set up wherein the pre would provide the level adjustment/gain.
    Last edited by GV#27; 02-10-2009 at 12:34 PM.

  4. #34

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    Quote Originally Posted by unc2701 View Post
    Your BAT pre provides input switching, tells the DAC in the DCX how loud to go and imparts it's own sonic signature. It's a stupendous piece of gear that could probably drive the tweeters in the CS2's with no amp at all, if you were that crazy. But in this setup, all it's driving is the A/D of the DCX. I'd disagree with GV#27 and wouldn't even say that it provides gain... Semantics, but it more "sets" gain; the DAC & opamps in the DCX provide the gain.

    The DCX takes the signal from the BAT and turns it into digital bits, does some fancy algorithms on them (crossover, limiting, gain,eq, etc), then its DAC changes those bits back into analog signals. At this point your SOURCE is the bits coming off the algorithms and your PRE is the DAC in the DCX. This goes into some $0.59 opamps (or $2 opamps with the upgrade) and out to the amp. Gain is determined by the DAC; It is set by the digital algorithms and the level provided by the BAT.

    Now, the DCX is an amazing piece of engineering for $250... but it's also a stack of cheap chinese parts. I've had two fail on me- one had a channel die (coincidentally the one that was driving a 500asp; the rest were driving a bryston) and the other needed a ribbon connector re-seated when it got hot. Google that and you'll find hundreds of people that have had DCX's fail. The pro guys that I hang with either won't touch them or always keep a spare on hand. Those opamps should have no trouble driving 8kohms, but if you're worried about it, some kind of buffer might be a good choice and 50kohms is gonna be a lot easier.
    Unc, I owe you an apology. I didn't mean to come off like an ass. I shouldn't joke around with someone I don't know well and I'm sure it wasn't a joke to you. Thanks for all the good info. I know I learned something new.

    Your system is definitely kicking and by no means Ghetto as you indicated. It's at least trailer trash :)






    Seriously though, I'm an idiot. Pay no attention.

  5. #35

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    Oh, sorry, the "ghetto gallos" was a reference to something I've been working on- I had my gallos upgraded to the 3.1's and got the old drivers back. I've been experimenting w/ them in an MTM & various woofers (the peerless XLS woofer wasn't upgraded). I'm pretty sure I put up a DIY post w/ them somewhere. Ugly as all hell, but fun to play with- thus "ghetto".

  6. #36

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    ttt... :)
    "He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you." Friedrich Nietzsche

  7. #37

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    Bump-

    I've read this thread, and may be purchasing a Wyred 4 Sound ST-500. I was wondering if this amp has been used by anyone since this thread and how it handles a 4 ohm or 2 ohm load? I will be powering Sony SS-M9's, rated at 4 ohms, 300wpc at 89 db sensitivity. Also, is there a suggested website to learn the difference between Class A, B, C, D, etc. amps? If I remember when I was reading tubes, there are different types - push/pull, etc. Does it have something to do with this?

    James
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  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pycroft View Post
    Also, is there a suggested website to learn the difference between Class A, B, C, D, etc. amps? If I remember when I was reading tubes, there are different types - push/pull, etc. Does it have something to do with this?
    Power amplifier circuits (output stages) are classified as A, B, AB and C for analog designs, and class D and E for switching designs based upon the conduction angle or angle of flow, Θ, of the input signal through the (or each) output amplifying device, that is, the portion of the input signal cycle during which the amplifying device conducts. The image of the conduction angle is derived from amplifying a sinusoidal signal. (If the device is always on, Θ = 360.) The angle of flow is closely related to the amplifier power efficiency. The various classes are introduced below, followed by more detailed discussion under individual headings later on.

    Class A
    100% of the input signal is used (conduction angle Θ = 360 or 2π); i.e., the active element remains conducting[5] (works in its "linear" range) all of the time. Where efficiency is not a consideration, most small signal linear amplifiers are designed as Class A. Class A amplifiers are typically more linear and less complex than other types, but are very inefficient. This type of amplifier is most commonly used in small-signal stages or for low-power applications (such as driving headphones). Subclass A2 is sometimes used to refer to vacuum tube Class A stages where the grid is allowed to be driven slightly positive on signal peaks, resulting in slightly more power than normal Class A (A1; where the grid is always negative[6]), but incurring more distortion.

    Class B
    50% of the input signal is used (Θ = 180 or π; i.e., the active element works in its linear range half of the time and is more or less turned off for the other half). In most Class B, there are two output devices (or sets of output devices), each of which conducts alternately (push–pull) for exactly 180 (or half cycle) of the input signal; selective RF amplifiers can also be implemented using a single active element.

    These amplifiers are subject to crossover distortion if the transition from one active element to the other is not perfect, as when two complementary transistors (i.e., one PNP, one NPN) are connected as two emitter followers with their base and emitter terminals in common, requiring the base voltage to slew across the region where both devices are turned off.[7]

    Class AB
    Here the two active elements conduct more than half of the time as a means to reduce the cross-over distortions of Class B amplifiers. In the example of the complementary emitter followers a bias network allows for more or less quiescent current thus providing an operating point somewhere between Class A and Class B. Sometimes a figure is added (e.g., AB1 or AB2) for vacuum tube stages where the grid voltage is always negative with respect to the cathode (Class AB1) or may be slightly positive (hence drawing grid current, adding more distortion, but giving slightly higher output power) on signal peaks (Class AB2); another interpretation being higher figures implying a higher quiescent current and therefore more of the properties of Class A.

    Class C

    Less than 50% of the input signal is used (conduction angle Θ < 180). The advantage is potentially high efficiency, but a disadvantage is high distortion.

    Class D
    These use switching to achieve a very high power efficiency (more than 90% in modern designs). By allowing each output device to be either fully on or off, losses are minimized. The analog output is created by pulse-width modulation; i.e., the active element is switched on for shorter or longer intervals instead of modifying its resistance. There are more complicated switching schemes like sigma-delta modulation, to improve some performance aspects like lower distortions or better efficiency.

    Additional classes

    There are several other amplifier classes, although they are mainly variations of the previous classes. For example, Class G and Class H amplifiers are marked by variation of the supply rails (in discrete steps or in a continuous fashion, respectively) following the input signal. Wasted heat on the output devices can be reduced as excess voltage is kept to a minimum. The amplifier that is fed with these rails itself can be of any class. These kinds of amplifiers are more complex, and are mainly used for specialized applications, such as very high-power units. Also, Class E and Class F amplifiers are commonly described in literature for radio frequencies applications where efficiency of the traditional classes in are important, yet several aspects not covered elsewhere (e.g.: amplifiers often simply said to have a gain of x dB - so what power gain?) deviate substantially from their ideal values. These classes use harmonic tuning of their output networks to achieve higher efficiency and can be considered a subset of Class C due to their conduction angle characteristics.

  9. #39
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    I also would like to bump this thread with the question: Has anyone tried or heard the W4S amps with horns? I'm always exploring my horn amplification options, and even though the CS2 uses a horn tweeter/mid, it's not a traditional horn speakers configuration (Klipsch). Although, I do take your good testimony of the amps Mike as assurance a successful combination is possible of horns and class D.

  10. #40

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    The only "horn" like speakers I've heard them on are Tannoys(horn loaded tweet), and Sonist(waveguide ribbon). I've also heard them on Acoustic Zen Crescendos and they've never sounded harsh with W4S gear in the signal path.
    "He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you." Friedrich Nietzsche

  11. #41

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    Quote Originally Posted by zingo View Post
    I also would like to bump this thread with the question: Has anyone tried or heard the W4S amps with horns? I'm always exploring my horn amplification options, and even though the CS2 uses a horn tweeter/mid, it's not a traditional horn speakers configuration (Klipsch). Although, I do take your good testimony of the amps Mike as assurance a successful combination is possible of horns and class D.
    I heard my W4S 1000s on a Klipsch Heresy speaker and I wanted to kill myself. I'm told the Heresy needs more tubey warm amplification.

  12. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by SolidSqual View Post
    I heard my W4S 1000s on a Klipsch Heresy speaker and I wanted to kill myself. I'm told the Heresy needs more tubey warm amplification.
    Not a glowing review... :tongue:

    Some people don't like horns to begin with because they are very "in your face" with extreme detail sometimes to a fault. I think that tubes tones down these characteristics a bit, lending horn and non-horn lovers to enjoy them alike. However, I am a stickler for detail, low noise, and clarity in my listening, and so I enjoy the horn sound even without tubes.

    Thanks for the thoughts and I will continue to be skeptically interested in hearing a W4S amp with my speakers.

  13. #43

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    Dont' get me wrong, I like horns. I just didn't like the Heresy with the amp.

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