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  1. #31

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    My Legacy audio Focus SE are set to large and have no issues with bass. Does not mean I will give up a sub though.
    Absolute corruption empowers absolutely.

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  2. #32

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    And even with the speakers set to large without a sub you will lose the .1 channel information.
    Absolute corruption empowers absolutely.

    Lg 55LW5600 TV
    Onkyo PR-SC 5508
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    Polk F/X500i Rears
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  3. #33

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    Quote Originally Posted by Phasewolf View Post
    And even with the speakers set to large without a sub you will lose the .1 channel information.
    My understanding is the .1 information is simply the low frequency from all channels summed into a single channel. It isn't something extra. If speakers are set to large then the low frequency is sent to the appropriate speaker versus being sent to a single speaker.

  4. #34

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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueFox View Post
    My understanding is the .1 information is simply the low frequency from all channels summed into a single channel. It isn't something extra. If speakers are set to large then the low frequency is sent to the appropriate speaker versus being sent to a single speaker.
    Yes and no or it depends as per my understanding.
    If your receiver processes/downmixes signal to .1 then, it'll be what you said.
    For example, a stereo source is changed in receiver to DD or DTS mode, then it's the receiver combining/processing the same stereo signal to all 5.1 or 7.1 channels.

    However, many DVD and all blu-ray's with DD or DTS/true/HD have dedicated .1 channel that is how it was recorded independent of other channels.

    LFE channel in that case is also a separate channel (some limited to 120hz after encoding) that is limited to the receiver's crossover settings after encoding. So basically a full range channel (20Hz-20kHz) limited to 80Hz-120Hz (depending upon receiver), not a mix of any other channel.

    Some latest tracks still send full range .1 channel even after encoding and leave it to subwoofer/receiver for limiting the frequency.


    Table Note (1): in all DTS ‘Coherent Acoustic’ codec the LFE channel is band limited at the encoding stage at 120 Hz. In the DTS-HD codec only [DTS-HD Master Audio™ (lossless) and DTS-HD High Resolution Audio™ (lossy)] the DTS-HD decoder applies a low-pass filter at 100 Hz (-3 dB) with a 60 dB/octave roll-off onto the LFE channel.



    The .1 channel was originally designed for use in theatres where the main channels could not reproduce the lower frequencies and additional headroom was required at these low frequencies to reproduce high SPL.
    Last edited by Mystery; 03-01-2014 at 12:19 AM.

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  5. #35

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    Quote Originally Posted by ken brydson View Post
    C'mon, he's using CAPS. He must know what he's talking about. Personally I use a sub but a recent visit to another Polkies abode running 4 A9's convinced me it wasn't absolutely necessary.

    4 A9s would do it if there were a lot of beefy amps powering them!

    cnh
    Last edited by cnh; 03-01-2014 at 12:05 PM.
    Onkyo TX-SR 805 System #1 HT AVR
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  6. #36

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    Quote Originally Posted by cnh View Post
    4 A9s would to it if there were a lot of beefy amps powering them!

    cnh
    Geoff definitely had the amps covered...
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  7. #37

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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueFox View Post
    My understanding is the .1 information is simply the low frequency from all channels summed into a single channel. It isn't something extra. If speakers are set to large then the low frequency is sent to the appropriate speaker versus being sent to a single speaker.
    That is also my understanding. Most modern receivers have better processing ability in them today and can re-route any and all signals including the .1 dedicated channel. Listening to the low end on my speakers with no sub....I have to agree.

    However, I can also agree that the better top of the line subs to an extraordinary job at producing that .1 channel....beyond what a speaker can deliver on it's own. That said, the low end I get is very satisfying...even on movie sound tracks. To spend a couple thousand bucks on that last octave or 2 of low end seems like a waste to me.

  8. #38

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    OK then let me put it this way. Your speakers are placed in the best possible place to image and have the best stereo sound which is not a lot of times the best place for the best bass they could produce. Where a speaker sounds the best for one thing it may not sound very good for a other range.

    Subs are not intended for anything but a single purpose and that is low bass information. The tests on the Legacy Audio Focus SE showed 10% THD at 20hz which is OK but there are subs that can hit that much cleaner for sure.

    The LFE channel can on some movies drop down to 5hz not something I want going to my mains and for liability reasons I just can see them doing that as most speakers would puke if pushed 5hz at high power clip clip pop.

    I guess I could take a 2 channel scope and see what info is being directed to the sub vs the mains on the sane part of a movie and then turn the sub off and see if it adds the information and reaches as low. Maybe a fun idea.
    Absolute corruption empowers absolutely.

    Lg 55LW5600 TV
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    Sunfire Grand Cinema
    Behringer iNUKE NU6000DSP
    Pair of CraigSUB SS-18.1

  9. #39

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    Running the powered subs takes the low frequency info, meaning lots of power, load off you AVR amps
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  10. #40

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    Quote Originally Posted by master1917 View Post
    On small vs. large and the point of tower speakers with overwhelming recommendations online for settings to small. The debate is ongoing on multiple forums and I finally found the solution for myself while greatly improving the sound by making equalizer adjustments via AVR.

    For the last 8 years, I have been using RTi10 front towers with CSi3 as a centre and FXi3 as rears in 5.1 set up. Upgraded to Klipsch SW-110 powered subwoofer from Polk's PSW10 just 3 months ago. Pioneer AVR's (1015 in the past and 1025 currently) with ~80 RMS per channel.

    Until a month ago I had not been very impressed with the sound either for music or for movies even though I had been reading great reviews for both polk's and pioneer AVR's prior to buying them. Sound was ok, but flat to my taste. The reviews raved about great bass, etc. but I didn't feel any "greatness" of bass of RTi10. I had just accepted it and thought this is the way the system should sound. I read up about "must set speakers to small or forget about bass.." and so on. Struggled with accepting this as having towers becomes useless. Continued playing around with MCACC, small with 80 crossover, large with 80 crossover, etc. Then bi-amped RTi10 with no apparent difference. No bass on non-5.1 signal was frustrating. Overall issue seemed like dead-end. ...until 1 month ago I simply changed the equalizer!

    After 8 years of not having what I believe the full benefit of RTi10 I finally get what I believe a much better sound by simply changing the equalizer settings manually after MCACC auto calibration by Pioneer AVR. I set speakers to large (actually I just kept MCACC settings to large via auto calibration) then manually changed crossover from 80Hz to 50Hz and increased speaker frequencies at 63Hz and 125Hz via manual equalizer adjustment on AVR and here came the bass I didn't know RTi10 could produce. Now I can easily justify having bought RTi10 that take up so much room while before I thought that I didn't share all the hype while still being a proud owner:).
    Also have a pioneer AVR and found the same issue with the auto-calibration. The lows on the MCACC were set way too low on the towers after calibration. Was disappointed in the Rti9's until I cranked up bass end on the manual EQ. I am using similar settings to yours, Front's/Center (RTia9's/CSiA6) to "Large" with the 50 Hz crossover with the "Plus" setting on the Sub and found it kicked up the punch on the LFE significantly. Sub is a PSW202 but due for an upgrade soon. I find a great test for that setup is the pod racing scene from SW:Ep 1 or the catapult assault from Kingdom of Heaven. Both of which punch you square in the chest with those settings versus the AutoCal-Fail configuration. I am using FXi3's as surrounds and R50 towers on the rear set to "Small". I have tried both "Large" and "Small" on those speakers and have not noticed much difference either way.

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