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  1. #31

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    Quote Originally Posted by Knucklehead View Post
    Now unless I missed it, I'm just curious how long you had been using your current cables before you cooked them?
    You bring up a good point. I should have mentioned this in the review, particularly since I was very skeptical about this device doing me any good due to the length of time I had owned my cables. The manufacturer claims that cable conditioning with ordinary music or test signals does not adequately condition cables. I found that to be correct for my cables. The manufacturer also offers to cheerfully and quickly refund the money of dissatisfied customers. He claimed to have not received even one returned unit in over ten years on the market.

    This evaluation was done in December of 2009. The purchase dates of the items tested were as follows. All items were previously broken in according to manufacturer's directions:

    1. Audioquest LeoPard tonearm cable, October 2006 (3 years of intermittent use).
    2. PS Audio AC-12 power cable, September 2009 (1 month of use).
    3. Audioquest Everest DBS speaker cables, December 2007 (2 years of use).
    4. Audioquest Sky XLR DBS interconnect cables, January 2008 (1 year, 11 months of use).
    5. Dreadnought isolation transformer, October 2008 (1 year, 2 months of use).

    Quote Originally Posted by Knucklehead View Post
    I can also see where in order to get true results from this product you really have to know what to listen for, I can tell when something sounds good or bad but I can also see where an audio-novice would not benefit from this piece of gear.
    Another good point. In any hobby based on sensory experience, the depth of the practitioner's perception will depend on their interests, abilities, experience and training. This isn't elitism, it is just common sense and reality. The experiences of those practicing on the high end of any hobby may not be transferable to those at the entry and mid-point levels. I had known about the Cable Cooker and other similar devices for six years before I decided to buy one, and even then I was highly skeptical and was looking forward to returning it.:)


    Quote Originally Posted by janmike View Post
    A bunch of folks that are close to each other should all chip in and purchase one. That way you guys could share it, something like the device I noticed at Polkfest at Teds a few years ago. The LP “straighter”.
    In reading Audio Asylum forum posts about the Cooker, I found that this is exactly what some people do, particularly those fortunate enough to be members of an active audio club.

    Quote Originally Posted by heiney9 View Post
    I'm sure the cable naysayers will have a bunch of BS to add as to why these specific, measureable changes either didn't occur, don't matter, or can't be detected by the human ear.
    There is no need for any BS, anger, or antagonism. If I have made some error in my quantitative analysis, then it should be easy to point out such error in quantitative terms. Criticisms along the lines of:

    "I don't like the title of the article",
    "the author doesn't have a clue",
    "the differences are there, but they are not audible",

    do not aid understanding.
    "Polk SDA-SRSs are hopelessly out of date both sonically and technologically... I see no value whatsoever in older SDA speakers."~Audio Asylum Member
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  2. #32

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ricardo View Post
    I have the feeling that some members that love to get into cable threads will conveniently miss this one.
    Ricardo,

    You are too impatient. This thread has only been around since Dec. 2009.;)
    "Polk SDA-SRSs are hopelessly out of date both sonically and technologically... I see no value whatsoever in older SDA speakers."~Audio Asylum Member
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  3. #33

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    Quote Originally Posted by reeltrouble1 View Post
    Ray,

    I am blocked from the Link on the MIT cables, I recall MIT particularily stated that cable cookers should not be used with their cables.........????????

    RT1
    Ted,

    Even if you had gone to the link, you would have had to dig up the author's blog from December 2009, and I don't even know if that page is still available. Doing a search on "MIT" and "Cable Cooker" didn't pull up his Cable Cooker/MIT cable review.

    Fortunately, I had saved those pages in a PDF which is attached below.:)
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  4. #34

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    Quote Originally Posted by DarqueKnight View Post
    Ricardo,

    You are too impatient. This thread has only been around since Dec. 2009.;)
    Maybe if we keep bumping it to the top???
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  5. #35

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    well thanks Ray. Yes, this device certainly might be worthy of another club consortium like the flattener, which by the way has been a rousing success.

    I am going to run it by Joe A to get his input on the MIT recommendation.

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  6. #36

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    When I talked with Joe he said "DO NOT USE" any cable cookers. I'm sure it has to do with the network box's..

    I missed this thread as well. Nice read as always DK..

    Larry.
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  7. #37

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ricardo View Post
    Maybe if we keep bumping it to the top???
    I don't think so. My experience indicates that these types of quantitative research threads are not of much interest to a certain segment of cable thread enthusiasts. This is somewhat shocking because that certain segement of cable thread enthusiasts is always demading proof, proof, proof.
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  8. #38

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    To me the article proves there is really no difference. When there were some measured differences, they were really insignificant. DK has perhaps proved the opposite of what he intended. Has this article been published in a peer reviewed publication or presented at an AES meeting?

    I know my fellow meter pontiffs will be bitterly disappointed by this, but it did not occur to me to look at the pre-cooked and post-cooked cable waveforms until I started cooking the speaker cables. By that time, the interconnect and power cables had been cooked. My original review plan for the Cable Cooker only included listening evaluations...since all that really matters is the SOUND.
    Figures 16 and 17 show the pre and post cooked Dreadnought transformer waveforms. The filtering function of the Dreadnought transformer is doing what many transformers do to square waves: forcing them to become as sinusoidal as possible. There is no appreciable difference between the pre and post cooked output waveforms. We would need to look elsewhere to account for the differences and improvements in sound quality after cooking.

    There was virtually no difference between the 60 Hz power signal noise spectrum measurements taken in September of 2009 (figure 20, pre-cooked) and the measurements taken in December of 2009 (figure 21, cooked). [Link to AC-12 power cable review.]

    Whatever the cause of the improvements I heard, I didn't see evidence of it in the noise spectrum.
    Last edited by xcapri79; 10-15-2010 at 04:14 PM.

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  9. #39

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    Quote Originally Posted by xcapri79 View Post
    To me the article proves there is really no difference. When there were some measued differences they were really insignificant. DK did a great service proving this. Has this article been published in a peer reviewed publication or presented at an AES meeting?
    there is a difference in the SQ not the measurements. Thats a difference in itself. (if SQ is different and we enjoy that difference).

    Please no derailing of this thread into more dribble of because its not measured it doesn't mean anything, we don't need that again.

    I am happy though that it was posted that MIT shouldn't be used as I normally use MIT and think this would be fun to try out sometime down the road...
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  10. #40

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    The article was an interesting read as DK is a good writer, however a lack of before and after measurements of the cables physical parameters particularly temperature and electrical paramaters namely resistance, capacitance and inductance leave it flawed at any rate. If those parameters do not change, the performance of the cables would not change.

    The differences in SQ noted are purely a subjective opinion and do not provide scientific proof.
    Last edited by xcapri79; 10-15-2010 at 04:24 PM.

  11. #41

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    "in your opinion."

    It goes without saying that subjective opinions are...well...subjective. Some common sense and personal reflection/processing of the data is required with any article such as this. An observation remains flawed until such a time that it moves from being a theory, to a fact.

    How about a positive contribution (be it pro or con to the idea) that actually adds to the interest of the topic, rather than arm chair quarterbacking--which requires little to no skill?
    Last edited by steveinaz; 10-15-2010 at 04:50 PM.

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  12. #42

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    Quote Originally Posted by steveinaz View Post
    "in your opinion."

    "If those parameters do not change, the performance of the cables would not change."

    The above is PURELY conjecture.
    No it is based on engineering knowledge. Cables like any other electrical device are modelled based on their electrical properties and their performance can be analysed mathematically as well as experimentally. Electromagnetic transient computer programs such as EMTP can be used to analyse the transient performance of cables, transformers or any other electrical device.

  13. #43

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    Knowledge does not equal fact. It is NOT engineering FACT--therefore, it's conjecture based on what knowledge we have at present-AKA theory.
    Last edited by steveinaz; 10-15-2010 at 05:02 PM.

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  14. #44

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    Quote Originally Posted by xcapri79 View Post
    To me the article proves there is really no difference. When there were some measured differences, they were really insignificant. DK has perhaps proved the opposite of what he intended. Has this article been published in a peer reviewed publication or presented at an AES meeting?
    What qualifies you to assume the measurements were insignificant? You and your cable heretics are never happy. .

    Pretty much spot-on as to what I expected from the cable naysayer crowd. You'll never, NEVER prove anything to them. I think Larry should stop the Jinjuku's cable challenge because this is the kind of rhetoric we can expect no matter what the outcome is.

    H9
    Last edited by heiney9; 10-15-2010 at 05:15 PM.
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass

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  15. #45

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    Well, what they don't get is that *the way* they engage these topics does nothing but destroy their credibility and integrity.

    Note: *

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  16. #46

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    Quote Originally Posted by steveinaz View Post
    Knowledge does not equal fact. It is NOT engineering FACT--therefore, it's conjecture based on what knowledge we have at present-AKA theory.
    Cable parameters such as resistance, capacitance and inductance can be measured. The measurements become facts. The modelling of linear electrical devices by their basic electrical properties of resistance, capacitance and inductance is freshman electrical engineering. It is pretty basic.

    The article doesn't perform those basic measurements, hence the results are not quantitative and not scientific at all.

    Anyways good science tends to get in the way of these cable discussions.

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  17. #47

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    Nice spin, wrong quote.

    See the statement I quoted, that you made. It's conjecture. Of course using the word "performance" opens a box full of variables that will assist you in your back-peddling.

    Have a good day, I'm done wasting my time on you.

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  18. #48

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    Fact:

    1. Cable Believer Always Believe No Matter What.

    2. Cable Naysayers Always Do Not Believe No Matter What.

    3. Nothing can prove both sides anything.

    4. There is no Middle Ground. The Middle Earth is swallowed by a Blackhole.

  19. #49

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    Quote Originally Posted by xcapri79 View Post
    Cable parameters such as resistance, capacitance and inductance can be measured. The measurements become facts. The modelling of linear electrical devices by their basic electrical properties of resistance, capacitance and inductance is freshman electrical engineering. It is pretty basic.

    The article doesn't perform those basic measurements, hence the results are not quantitative and not scientific at all.

    Anyways good science tends to get in the way of these cable discussions.
    Resistance, capacitance and inductance only tell a very small part of the entire story. It's how they interact with other audio devices as well as the audio signal that can't always be quantified. It's like an economic model, looks great when everything but what you are measuring is constant.

    In real life and in audio the other contraints are never static, they are dynamic and your neat little 3 sentence hypothesis doesn't take any of this into account. If it were as simple as you say, there should be a whole library building with volumes of data dedicated to disproving all you call audio phallacy, magic, smoke and mirror's etc., but there isn't because the data is very hard to come by because of many, many variables that R, C, and I don't explain completely.

    H9
    Last edited by heiney9; 10-15-2010 at 05:37 PM.
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass

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  20. #50

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    Quote Originally Posted by heiney9 View Post
    Yep, grammer police caught me. Typing quickly sometimes yields grammatical mistakes.
    It happens.

    It is easy to become confused when writing in English. Similar words such as ‘their’ and ‘there’ are homophones (words which sound the same) and are easily jumbled up in sentence creation, causing the writer of a particular text to come across as juvenile to those who are more conscious of grammatical errors.
    http://www.grammar.com/
    Last edited by xcapri79; 10-15-2010 at 06:14 PM.

  21. #51

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    Quote Originally Posted by heiney9 View Post
    Yep, grammer police caught me. Typing quickly sometimes yields grammatical mistakes. If that's the most intelligent stuff you can come up with then you should probably sit this one out.
    actually, everyone should probably sit this one out. There is no point in another endless debate that turns into 10% on point and 90% insults/off point.

    Besides, one side *cough* the esteemed, respectful, and totally grown up Keiko *cough* is STARTING their argument with stupid pictures and insults... just imagine where it will end.
    Last edited by cokewithvanilla; 10-15-2010 at 06:21 PM.

  22. #52

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    oops! Missed one. My mistake, 'guys' :o

  23. #53

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    Quote Originally Posted by xcapri79 View Post
    To me the article proves there is really no difference. When there were some measured differences, they were really insignificant.
    Everything is subject to personal interpretation and I certainly respect your opinion. Please quantify the appropriate threshold of significance for these measurements.

    Quote Originally Posted by xcapri79 View Post
    DK has perhaps proved the opposite of what he intended.
    Why qualify your comment with perhaps? Either I did it or I didn't.

    The part that some people don't get is that I was not trying to "prove" anything. I was curious about the claimed performance gains of a cable break in device and I conducted a subjective evaluation. When I heard sonic improvement, I became curious about the underlying causes of what I was hearing and decided to do some measurements. I did not purchase the Cable Cooker with the intention of doing a formal scientific study.

    Quote Originally Posted by xcapri79 View Post
    Has this article been published in a peer reviewed publication or presented at an AES meeting?
    No it has not...and I have no intention of doing so. I am curious as to why you ask? Are you implying the the results are of no value unless they have been published in a peer reviewed publication or are you implying that the results are of such value that it would be a shame to limit them to the forum? Please clarify.

    There are lots of people claiming scientific training on this forum. Seems to me that with all the physics and EE degree holders we have around here, we should be able to settle these types of discussions amongst ourselves. For example, it does not help us when you say the measured differences are insignificant but then provide no quantitative and theoretical support for your position. Is this not reasonable?
    Last edited by DarqueKnight; 10-15-2010 at 07:06 PM.
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    I remember seeing this when you first posted it DK, but was interesting to re-read. Thanks for taking the time to put this up. :)

    It's great to have an opinion, it means you've made up your mind, and are going to stand by your decision. Opinions are neither right, nor wrong, they are just opinions. If you try to tell someone that their opinion is wrong it usually doesn't go over very well.

    It's also great to have respect for others. It means that you are a mature adult, and in the event that you and another don't agree, you can agree to the fact that your opinions are different and move along. If your want to have people show respect for you, you have to show it as well. Think before you speak.

    It's sad that several recent threads have been derailed by a lack of respect, one of my own included. This could have been avoided if respect had been in play here. Unfortunately, the OP's are getting **** on by people who want to jam their opinions down everyone's throats.

    I do believe that cables make a difference, that cables can break in every bit as much as speakers do, that amps sound better after they've warmed up, and that a new car needs to be broken in properly as well. If you agree, that's great. If you don't, that's great. We agree to disagree, it's called respect.

    If you really cant stand someone on these forums, there is the ignore feature.
    All you have to do is this:

    Step 1: Log in the the forum
    Step 2: click on user CP (it's on the upper left hand side of your screen)
    Step 3: click on edit ignore list (also on the left hand side)
    Step 4: Enter the username of the person you don't like
    Step 5: Never see what they say again (unless someone quotes them)

    Just my opinion ;)

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    Quote Originally Posted by xcapri79 View Post
    The article was an interesting read as DK is a good writer, however a lack of before and after measurements of the cables physical parameters particularly temperature and electrical paramaters namely resistance, capacitance and inductance leave it flawed at any rate. If those parameters do not change, the performance of the cables would not change.

    The differences in SQ noted are purely a subjective opinion and do not provide scientific proof.
    As H9 previously pointed out, there is more to audible cable performance than the gross parameters of L, C, and R.

    Since you brought up the subject of peer reviewed scientific publications, here are a few for your consideration:

    "A Method for Measuring the Characteristics of an EMI Suppression Ferrite Core", J. Uribe et al., IEEE Transactions on Electromagnetic Compatibility, Vol. 48, No. 4, November 2006.

    Abstract: "Almost all digital equipment has electromagnetic interference (EMI) suppression ferrite cores to encircle cables, such as mains and peripheral cables. However, their EMI suppression capability is hardly evaluated from the impedance characteristics provided by the manufacturers. Hence, this paper proposes to characterize the ferrite core losses in terms of the insertion loss and the reflection coefficient."

    "Analysis of Ferrite Beads For RF Isolation On Straight Wire Conductors", S. Saario et al., IEEE Electronics Letters, Vol. 33, No. 16, July 31, 1997.

    Abstract: "Ferrite beads used for the suppression of electromagnetic interference (EMO) were analyzed using the finite difference time domain (FDTD) method. The presence of the bead results in reflected current, cable radiation and resonant characteristics which significantly affect the ability to suppress currents uniformly over a wide frequency range."

    "Geometric Analysis and Manufacturing Considerations for Optimizing the Characteristics of a Twisted Pair", A. Lago, et al., IEEE Transactions on Electronics Packaging Manufacturing, Vol. 32, No. 1, January 2009.

    Abstract: The geometry of a twisted pair largely determines its electrical characteristics. To improve and refine the value of these characteristics according to preset values, the optimization of the manufacturing process requires comprehensive knowledge of twisted pair geometry and of how electrical magnitudes are affected by the construction features of the twisted pair. This paper studies the relation between the length of a twisted pair cable and the length of each of the wires that compose the cable, by analyzing concepts such as pitch angle and radius of the helix."

    "An Optimal New Shielded Twisted Pair Model to Improve the Electromagnetic Immunity in the Automotive Applications", C. M. Penlaver et al., 2007 IEEE International Symposium on Industrial Electronics, June 2007, Vigo, Spain.

    Abstract: "Shielding twisted pair with metallic tape is a widely used resource to reduce the electromagnetic emissions and increase noise immunity of the twisted pair to those emissions. But, in addition to decrease electromagnetic emissions, shield also affects electric and geometry characteristics of the pair. Estimation of twisted pair geometry is vital to compute as much as the shield affects the electric characteristics of the pair. The goal of this paper is to develop a model of shielded twisted pair which allows to compute the shield shape as a function of twisted properties of the pair and physical characteristics of the shield tape. The model calculated in this paper is a part of a large work research; with the results of that research we can calculate the most used electric characteristics of the pair according to the physical and geometrical characteristics of it. This research was applied in an important cable manufacturing company of the automotive sector."

    From Section II of the Penalver paper: "Electric characteristics of twisted pair depend on its physical and geometric characteristics, like number of twists per meter and dielectric characteristics of insulation or gap between cables in the pair. If twisted pair is covered by a shield, electric characteristics will be affected."

    ====================================

    The papers above, and many more in the area of cable science, can be downloaded free of charge from any library that subscribes to the IEEE Xplore database. The reader will become immediately and forcefully aware that cable performance is influenced by significantly more than L, C, and R and that such gross parameters are merely the starting points for a true understanding of cable theory.

    When PS Audio included a discussion of the ferrite bead distributed in their power cable jackets as a means to filter noise, this was dismissed by some as marketing hype.

    When PS Audio, Shunyata and Audioquest included a discussion of wire geometry in their cable product brochures, this was dismissed by some as marketing hype.

    When Audioquest included a discussion of a cable insulation's dielectric properties affecting the noise performance of the cable, this was dismissed by some as marketing hype.

    However, when we go to the peer reviewed engineering and scientific literature, we find that the application of ferrite compounds and the choice of wire geometry are important determinants in cable performance.
    "Polk SDA-SRSs are hopelessly out of date both sonically and technologically... I see no value whatsoever in older SDA speakers."~Audio Asylum Member
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  26. #56

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    Quote Originally Posted by messiah View Post
    It's great to have an opinion, it means you've made up your mind, and are going to stand by your decision. Opinions are neither right, nor wrong, they are just opinions. If you try to tell someone that their opinion is wrong it usually doesn't go over very well.
    Opinion does not have to be absolute. Some people form an opinion about something but remain open to changing their minds if new knowledge or understanding is made available to them. Then, there are others who will maintain a position no matter what.
    "Polk SDA-SRSs are hopelessly out of date both sonically and technologically... I see no value whatsoever in older SDA speakers."~Audio Asylum Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by DarqueKnight View Post
    Opinion does not have to be absolute. Some people form an opinion about something but remain open to changing their minds if new knowledge or understanding is made available to them. Then, there are others who will maintain a position no matter what.
    Oh, I agree DK. Years back I read an article by Roger Russell. It told me that speaker wire is all the same. Being that he's the McIntosh guy, I accepted what he said, and my opinion was that big wire was good, but expensive wire was silly. Then I heard the difference really good cables can make, and my opinion changed again. It's cool to learn new things. It's also sad that some people are so closed minded that they don't want to learn new things.

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    Quote Originally Posted by xcapri79 View Post
    The article was an interesting read as DK is a good writer, however a lack of before and after measurements of the cables physical parameters particularly temperature and electrical paramaters namely resistance, capacitance and inductance leave it flawed at any rate. If those parameters do not change, the performance of the cables would not change.

    The differences in SQ noted are purely a subjective opinion and do not provide scientific proof.
    Did you miss the portion (post #3) where DK marked apparent sound source points in his listening area with red flags on camera tripods?

    I was just thinking about this in terms of the sense of sight. You can go to the drug store and find cheap reading glasses for $2. Many times the diopter tag has fallen off of them, but you can certainly try on several until you find a pair that improve your vision without ever knowing the diopter measurement. Why do many accept what their sense of sight tells them without question, but don't trust their ears?
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    Yes DK, I agree that cable geometry plays a huge role in determining the impedance of a cable.

    Typically cables which are significantly shorter than its signals wavelength can be modeled by lumped parameters such that it's impedance is a function of R, L in series with C and G in parallel. This is the case with audio cables.

    G is the conductance of the dielectic represented as a shunt resistance.



    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Primary_line_constants
    Last edited by xcapri79; 10-15-2010 at 09:48 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by xcapri79 View Post
    Yes DK, I agree that cable geometry plays a huge role in determining the impedance of a cable.
    Are you also aware of the huge role that cable geometry plays in the noise characteristics of a cable and are you aware of the huge role that cable noise abatement plays in signal, and particularly stereophonic signal, integrity?

    In addition to the previously referenced peer reviewed IEEE papers on cable geometry and ferrite assisted noise rejection, you may find the following patent documents interesting:

    United States Patent 7,170,008
    Inventor: Jay Victor January 30, 2007


    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Audio signal cable


    Abstract: An audio signal cable consisting of various combinations of two or more distinct types of conductors. The cable contains at least two conductors of different types. The individual conductors within the cable may be individually insulated or uninsulated. The individual conductors may also be of varying shapes and sizes. The conductors are surrounded by a common insulation. Combining at least two types of different conductors within the cable provides the cable with a versatility to be adaptable to a wide variety of sound applications.


    ======================

    United States Patent 7,476,808
    Jay Victor January 13, 2009


    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Audio cable structure


    Abstract
    An audio signal cable, the features of which are that the audio signal cable has arrayed solid and tinsel wire conductors. After each of the conductors are insulated and bundled, they are placed into a surrounding insulation. The solid conductors are of a circular and a flat, thin shape. The solid conductors are of differing larger and smaller diameters and, furthermore, disposed in unequal quantities.

    =======================================

    United States Patent 7,126,055
    William Low , et al. October 24, 2006


    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Apparatus and methods for dielectric bias system


    Abstract
    Methods and apparatus of connecting and communicating signals between electrical devices (such as stereo or video speaker or interconnect cables or similar circuits) include applying a bias voltage across the dielectric without interfering with the signals, by applying an energy source to at least one conductor not in the signal path.

    SUMMARY

    [1] The present invention describes a system and method for biasing the dielectric of a cable connected between electrical devices. Among other things, the dielectric bias system (DBS.TM.) of the invention provides biasing to maintain a desired "run-in" condition for the cable, without interfering with the signal itself. Establishing and maintaining a "run-in" dielectric bias potential enables the cable to more effectively, consistently, and immediately communicate a higher quality, lower distortion audio and/or video signal between electrical devices (as compared to a cable that is not pre-conditioned by the establishment of a dielectric bias potential).
    "Polk SDA-SRSs are hopelessly out of date both sonically and technologically... I see no value whatsoever in older SDA speakers."~Audio Asylum Member
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