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  1. #61

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    Quote Originally Posted by DarqueKnight View Post
    From Section II of the Penalver paper: "Electric characteristics of twisted pair depend on its physical and geometric characteristics, like number of twists per meter and dielectric characteristics of insulation or gap between cables in the pair. If twisted pair is covered by a shield, electric characteristics will be affected."
    Quote Originally Posted by DarqueKnight View Post
    Are you also aware of the huge role that cable geometry plays in the noise characteristics of a cable and are you aware of the huge role that cable noise abatement plays in signal, and particularly stereophonic signal, integrity?
    Yes most definitely. This is basic knowledge with respect to video, instrumentation, and RF cable in particular as these issues become more acute at higher frequencies.
    Last edited by xcapri79; 10-15-2010 at 10:10 PM.

  2. #62

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    Quote Originally Posted by xcapri79 View Post
    Well I had to keep it basic for you because I care.:)
    You don't have to keep it basic for me. Go as esoteric as required to explain your point.

    My understanding is that the design criteria of high performance audio cables is focused on the reduction of the noise generated as the signal interacts with the materials in the cable (wire and insulation) and the abatement of noise induced from the environment.

    How do the gross parameters of L, C, and R completely quantify the conducted and environmental noise encountered by a power or audio signal as it is transmitted through a cable?
    "Polk SDA-SRSs are hopelessly out of date both sonically and technologically... I see no value whatsoever in older SDA speakers."~Audio Asylum Member
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  3. #63

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    Quote Originally Posted by xcapri79 View Post
    Yes most definitely. This is basic knowledge with respect to video, instrumentation, and RF cable in particular as these issues become more acute at higher frequencies.
    So, are you saying that cable geometry is not important, or acute, for audio and power frequencies?

    A power cable is only concerned with passing a 60 Hz signal. Audio cables are only concerned with passing a bandwidth of 20-20 kHz, yet audio cable companies say that their cables need to be shielded from high frequency EMI and RFI? This is somewhat counterintuitive.
    "Polk SDA-SRSs are hopelessly out of date both sonically and technologically... I see no value whatsoever in older SDA speakers."~Audio Asylum Member
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  4. #64

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    Quote Originally Posted by DarqueKnight View Post
    You don't have to keep it basic for me. Go as esoteric as required to explain your point.

    My understanding is that the design criteria of high performance audio cables is focused on the reduction of the noise generated as the signal interacts with the materials in the cable (wire and insulation) and the abatement of noise induced from the environment.

    How do the gross parameters of L, C, and R completely quantify the conducted and environmental noise encountered by a power or audio signal as it is transmitted through a cable?
    Noise can be introduced at the source, or electromagnetically by inductive and capacitive mutual coupling. Twisting wires together and adding a shield around the pair reduces these electromagnetic effects. The cable resistance itself introduces thermal noise.

    I'll see if I can find the GE paper that discusses electromagnetic interference with control and instrumentation cables.
    Here it is. The paper discusses electric and magnetic field induction and shielding and grounding on cable ends to reduce electromagnetically induced surges.
    http://pm.geindustrial.com/FAQ/Docum...l/GER-3205.pdf

    All of this makes a difference and can be achieved at a relatively low cost as Belden cables proves.


    Quote Originally Posted by DarqueKnight View Post
    So, are you saying that cable geometry is not important, or acute, for audio and power frequencies?

    A power cable is only concerned with passing a 60 Hz signal. Audio cables are only concerned with passing a bandwidth of 20-20 kHz, yet audio cable companies say that their cables need to be shielded from high frequency EMI and RFI? This is somewhat counterintuitive.
    As noted above, shielding reduces mutual coupling from adjacent conductors and other sources of radiated fields.
    Last edited by xcapri79; 10-15-2010 at 10:35 PM.

  5. #65

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    X you seem like a smart guy sometimes, and sometimes I like reading your posts if it's something with substance that one can learn from even if it's taken from wikipedia. most of DK's posts have something to wrap your brain around, and if one can't understand it he helps one out.

    You my friend need to kick the BS and open your mind a little and look outside the box now and then. You could have a lot more to share.

    Just my .02

    at least the conversation here between you guys has substance even though you have two different views..
    No Way But The Hard Way, So Get Used To It!!!

  6. #66

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    Quote Originally Posted by Keiko View Post
    Try wikipedia. ;)
    Google was my friend, Bing wasn't.:)

    I needed a break. I would add that noise is a greater problem with small signal conductors such as interconnects cpmpared with "large" signal conductors such as speaker wire. So signal size, frequency, proximity to other radiating conductors and sources, and system grounding are factors that signal cables need to deal with.

    That is why I prefer digital transmission with error correction and fiber optics as a low cost way to combat noise and other sources of external interference.
    Last edited by xcapri79; 10-15-2010 at 10:55 PM.

  7. #67

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    In case you missed my questions in post # 85, I will repeat:

    Quote Originally Posted by DarqueKnight View Post
    Please quantify the appropriate threshold of significance for these measurements.


    Are you implying the the results are of no value unless they have been published in a peer reviewed publication or are you implying that the results are of such value that it would be a shame to limit them to the forum? Please clarify.

    For example, it does not help us when you say the measured differences are insignificant but then provide no quantitative and theoretical support for your position. Is this not reasonable?
    Quote Originally Posted by xcapri79 View Post
    Noise can be introduced at the source, or electromagnetically by inductive and capacitive mutual coupling. Twisting wires together and adding a shield around the pair reduces these electromagnetic effects. The cable resistance itself introduces thermal noise
    OK.

    You offered some commentary here on the validity of my findings:

    Quote Originally Posted by xcapri79 View Post
    Cable parameters such as resistance, capacitance and inductance can be measured. The measurements become facts. The modelling of linear electrical devices by their basic electrical properties of resistance, capacitance and inductance is freshman electrical engineering. It is pretty basic.

    The article doesn't perform those basic measurements, hence the results are not quantitative and not scientific at all.

    Anyways good science tends to get in the way of these cable discussions.
    Correct me if I misunderstand, but according to you, since I concentrated on the noise performance and signal integrity performance of the pre and post burned cables, my investigation was not quantitative and not scientific?

    Quote Originally Posted by xcapri79 View Post
    All of this makes a difference and can be achieved at a relatively low cost as Belden cables proves.
    I agree that lower cost items can provide some or even a significant portion of the the performance of higher cost items. Is it your position that there is no performance advantage to audio cables that offer better materials, better theoretical design and better construction?
    "Polk SDA-SRSs are hopelessly out of date both sonically and technologically... I see no value whatsoever in older SDA speakers."~Audio Asylum Member
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  8. #68

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    none of this has anything to do with the sound someone hears from an audio system.

    those unwilling to try simply serve those that do.

    it took emperical evidence to realize what was flat was not, well, along with a bit of courage.

    RT1
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  9. #69

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    Default Skewering the Skewed and Ridiculing the Ridiculous

    It is not my intention to resume a preposterous debate in an ancient thread. I merely seek to illuminate this debate for anyone who might be contemplating throwing away a huge chunk of change on demonstrably useless garbage.

    A certain threshold of technical knowledge is required to understand the mathematics behind the electrical theory. Without that mathematical and physical background education, it is simply impossible to understand what is actually happening and why, leaving one vulnerable to suggestion.

    Those who pooh-pooh hard physics in favor of suggestion do so at the risk of their wallets.

    For those of you who are unaware of the definition of the word 'theory' please be advised that a theory is a testable and tested and refined and retested hypothesis. A theory is regarded as the next best thing to a fact by scientists and treated as indistinguishable from fact unless some revolutionary new advance in science has called a previously accepted theory into question.

    This is why there was a request for measured cable parameters. Without a change in measured parameters there is no known method of action to explain any subjective improvement. Human ears are not even approaching the accuracy of 'mere' instrumentation, which is why all modern audiophile equipment is designed with computer simulation and all modern designs are verified by testing with that 'mere' instrumentation.

    What I saw posted here in this particular forum were several 'before' oscilloscope screen shots that were apparently compared to 'after' screenshots taken with different scope display settings, different to the point that even the number of dots on the screen is noticeably altered and affects the apparent shape of the waveform.

    Show me the physical changes to the molecular structure of a burned-in cable, accompanied by measurable changes in cable impedance, and maybe I will start to believe that cable burn-in does something real to the physical cable. Show me the changes in a spectrograph, be it harmonic distortion or frequency response, and I will start to believe that cable burn-in does something to the sound. Show me double-blind studies where subjects can reliably differentiate a cooked vs. a raw cable, and I will start to believe that cable burn-in may be worth investing hard-earned cash. Those are my demands for proof.

    By the way, this same double-blind listening test has already been done and disproven the claims of the audible superiority of high sample rate and extended word length digital audio distribution formats such as 96/24 and up. Traditional one-bit CD quality digital audio with proper dither already beats the best human ears in both frequency response and dynamic range.

    Cable cookers and their adherents advocate cooking digital and power cables as well as speaker wire. So then what is the claimed mechanism of action that justifies cooking a digital cable or a power cable where there are no known sonic properties at all associated with the cable?

    Why would a speaker wire and a coaxial signal cable both respond favorably to the exact same cooking signal, when the physical characteristics of each type of cable, and the energy content of the signals they are carrying, are so radically different from each other?

    Why is it that none of the interconnect on the printed circuit board or inside the integrated circuits of a receiver seems susceptible to the magic of cooking, or more importantly, to the lack of cooking?

    Why does a 90 volt listening session not overcook a speaker cable that only needs a 2 volt square wave to properly condition it? Why does a 2 volt square wave not overcook a cable that typically carries less than a volt of sine waves?

    So what are we claiming is the mechanism of action here? Does cable cooking somehow alter the physical properties of the wire, or do the relevant electrical characteristics of the metal have nothing at all to do with physics? Is it metaphysical?

    I design integrated circuits for a living. Every single parameter I deal with is based in electrical theory that is in turn based in the physical properties of the materials.

    I understand what happens to wire when it overheats.

    I even understand what happens to wire when it does not overheat but merely has too much current traveling through it for its cross-section.

    I understand what happens to a dielectric when the electrical potential across it exceeds its breakdown voltage.

    I understand things that adherents to 'cable cooking' will never comprehend in their entire lives. Never did I come across anything that indicates to me that cable cooking does anything other than burn up money.

    Never once in my career did I ever come across 'cable burn in'. When a cable is burned, it is defective, period. It is either opened, or shorted, or some combination of the two, and it is definitely in a grossly pathological state after burning.

    If cable cooking accomplished anything at all there would be published pictures of physical changes and NASA would be using such devices to improve their radiotelescopes

    We are not discussing noise immunity in an automotive setting where there are high-current noise signals running around the electrical harness and floating across the battery, or ferrite beads on digital cabling to reduce radio wave emissions, or obscure patents on application-specific cabling, or the phase of the moon, or the phase of your wife, or any other red herring bandied about like a light saber to ward off the Dark Side of the Force.

    We are merely interested in home audio signals and the (lack of) efficacy of 'burn-in'. The statement that, for the purposes of proving or disproving 'burn-in', lumped parameters are sufficient for most speaker wires and even most audio interconnect cables is 100% factual. You can bank on it. This engineer offers a professional opinion that concurs 100% with the statement that burn-in is bull.

    This is after all a matter of science, not faith. If you want to (dis)prove a preposterous concept, I encourage you to set up a research lab with an electron microscope and x-ray and a double-blind computer-controlled relay to switch your 'cooked' cable in and out of circuit without anyone knowing which one you are listening to until after you have already given your best guess to the computer program as to which one you are currently listening to, and have it score your 'golden ears' in a purely objective and repeatable fashion with no subtle cues such as blasting your favorite audio test suite for your wife while you joyously prance around the kitchen bragging about how good it sounds. Then come here and tell me all about the advantages of cable cooking.

    Of course no one is going to do the science necessary to put the final nail in this Frankenstein's coffin. Those with the money to afford it have nothing to gain by proving themselves to be charlatans and hucksters, and those without the money to afford it, well they cannot afford it! No university professor is going to approve it as a master's or doctoral thesis. Even proposing such a thesis could get one tossed out on one's behind, along with the copper bracelets and wrist magnets and magic crystals and Homeopathy.

    Yes this is 'merely' the opinion of a somewhat less shy engineer who is not so timid as to avoid hurting the pride of people who have been taken in by a song and a dance. I am thinking of the best interests of those sitting on the fence, who might fall prey to the hucksters in the near future.

    For those who want to argue the point intelligently but cannot afford the rigorous scientific proof, they might try going to college and earning an undergraduate degree in electrical engineering or physics. Then they can come back here and argue the point with a little bit of authority once they understand something about the physical properties of materials and how they affect the electrical properties of cables. Until then they are merely 'cable burn-in acolytes' practicing faith-based listening and begging for ridicule.

  10. #70

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    Well mister undergraduate electrical engineer, the author of this thread has a Ph.D. degree in electrical engineering, is a professor of electrical engineering and owns a telecommunications consulting business. He is also a friend of mine. I dare say he knows a helluva lot more than you do.

    Talk about begging for ridicule......congrats, you just stepped in a big pile of it.
    'Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end."

  11. #71

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    I encourage you to set up a research lab with an electron microscope and x-ray and a double-blind computer-controlled relay to switch your 'cooked' cable in and out of circuit
    Well, if you say so.
    http://www.ebay.com/itm/ZEISS-SEM-Sc...item2329e71a2f
    $3600 is a little more than I want to spend (even for a Zeis DM-60), but .... if you say it's necessary, then okay.

    have it score your 'golden ears' in a purely objective and repeatable fashion with no subtle cues such as blasting your favorite audio test suite for your wife while you joyously prance around the kitchen bragging about how good it sounds. Then come here and tell me all about the advantages of cable cooking.
    Is the prancing thing mandatory to complete your test proposal ? Also, I have to be honest and say that I'll have a little trouble with setting up a research lab so I was thinking about just scooting the washer back closer to the hot water heater to clear up some space in the laundry room. That ought to work.

    Thanks for your input !
    MrBigBlueLight
    Usually right, but sometimes not entirely factually correct.
    Shifting to Plan B

  12. #72

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    Quote Originally Posted by F1nut View Post
    Well mister undergraduate electrical engineer, the author of this thread has a Ph.D. degree in electrical engineering, is a professor of electrical engineering and owns a telecommunications consulting business. He is also a friend of mine. I dare say he knows a helluva lot more than you do.

    Talk about begging for ridicule......congrats, you just stepped in a big pile of it.
    It must have been a REALLY slow day on the 'other' forums for red rover to come over....

    H9: If you don't trust what you are hearing, then maybe you need to be less invested in a hobby which all the pleasure comes from listening to music.

  13. #73

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    Quote Originally Posted by CherylJosie View Post
    It is not my intention to resume a preposterous debate in an ancient thread. I merely seek to illuminate this debate for anyone who might be contemplating throwing away a huge chunk of change on demonstrably useless garbage.
    Thank you for taking time out of your busy schedule to share your wisdom. The Cable Cooker can be returned for a full refund if it does not work out, so the only risks are shipping costs and time.

    Quote Originally Posted by CherylJosie View Post
    What I saw posted here in this particular forum were several 'before' oscilloscope screen shots that were apparently compared to 'after' screenshots taken with different scope display settings, different to the point that even the number of dots on the screen is noticeably altered and affects the apparent shape of the waveform.
    All of the time domain plots have an amplitude scale of 5 volts per division and a time scale of 10 microseconds per division. Where are you interpreting "different scope display settings". How could the shape of the waveform be altered if the same voltage and time scales were used for before and after plots?

    Quote Originally Posted by CherylJosie View Post
    Show me the physical changes to the molecular structure of a burned-in cable, accompanied by measurable changes in cable impedance, and maybe I will start to believe that cable burn-in does something real to the physical cable. Show me the changes in a spectrograph, be it harmonic distortion or frequency response, and I will start to believe that cable burn-in does something to the sound. Show me double-blind studies where subjects can reliably differentiate a cooked vs. a raw cable, and I will start to believe that cable burn-in may be worth investing hard-earned cash. Those are my demands for proof.
    "Demands" for proof? LOL.

    Spectral plots were shown in figures 20 and 21.

    Quote Originally Posted by CherylJosie View Post
    So what are we claiming is the mechanism of action here? Does cable cooking somehow alter the physical properties of the wire, or do the relevant electrical characteristics of the metal have nothing at all to do with physics? Is it metaphysical?
    Cable conditioning involves conditioning the dielectric material (insulation) surrounding the wire, not the wire itself. Saturating the insulation over time prevents it from storing and releasing energy back into the wire and causing distortion to the signal carried by the wire.

    Quote Originally Posted by CherylJosie View Post
    Cable cookers and their adherents advocate cooking digital and power cables as well as speaker wire. So then what is the claimed mechanism of action that justifies cooking a digital cable or a power cable where there are no known sonic properties at all associated with the cable?

    Why would a speaker wire and a coaxial signal cable both respond favorably to the exact same cooking signal, when the physical characteristics of each type of cable, and the energy content of the signals they are carrying, are so radically different from each other?
    Generally, most cables composed of insulated metal conductors will benefit from having its insulation conditioned so that it will not spuriously absorb and release energy into the signal being carried. However, as I noted in this report, the wiring of my Graham Phantom I tonearm did not benefit from conditioning.

    Power cables are particularly good candidates for conditioning because noise introduced into mains power will affect the quality of audio signals.

    Quote Originally Posted by CherylJosie View Post
    Why is it that none of the interconnect on the printed circuit board or inside the integrated circuits of a receiver seems susceptible to the magic of cooking, or more importantly, to the lack of cooking?
    Internal wiring, inductors, capacitors, transformers, anything with insulated wire will benefit from "cooking".

    Quote Originally Posted by CherylJosie View Post
    Why does a 90 volt listening session not overcook a speaker cable that only needs a 2 volt square wave to properly condition it?
    An audio signal has rapidly and continually varying amplitude. Full power is not being delivered through the speaker cable at all times.

    Quote Originally Posted by CherylJosie View Post
    Why does a 2 volt square wave not overcook a cable that typically carries less than a volt of sine waves?
    A 2 volt square wave can and will overcook a cable if it is cooked too long. That is why the manufacturer recommends short cooking periods followed by listening sessions.

    Quote Originally Posted by CherylJosie View Post
    I design integrated circuits for a living. Every single parameter I deal with is based in electrical theory that is in turn based in the physical properties of the materials.

    I understand what happens to wire when it overheats.

    I even understand what happens to wire when it does not overheat but merely has too much current traveling through it for its cross-section.

    I understand what happens to a dielectric when the electrical potential across it exceeds its breakdown voltage.
    You apparently do not understand the dielectric properties of wire insulation and how those dielectric properties can affect the noise performance of a cable.

    Quote Originally Posted by CherylJosie View Post
    I understand things that adherents to 'cable cooking' will never comprehend in their entire lives. Never did I come across anything that indicates to me that cable cooking does anything other than burn up money.
    What I don't understand is why you are so concerned with how others spend their money. Do you get this worked up about people who spend thousands of dollars on handbags, shoes, cigarettes, alcohol, and dope?

    Quote Originally Posted by CherylJosie View Post
    Never once in my career did I ever come across 'cable burn in'. When a cable is burned, it is defective, period. It is either opened, or shorted, or some combination of the two, and it is definitely in a grossly pathological state after burning.

    If cable cooking accomplished anything at all there would be published pictures of physical changes and NASA would be using such devices to improve their radiotelescopes
    So, just because NASA does not do something, that is proof that the procedure has no value and validity?

    Quote Originally Posted by CherylJosie View Post
    This is after all a matter of science, not faith. If you want to (dis)prove a preposterous concept, I encourage you to set up a research lab with an electron microscope and x-ray and a double-blind computer-controlled relay to switch your 'cooked' cable in and out of circuit without anyone knowing which one you are listening to until after you have already given your best guess to the computer program as to which one you are currently listening to, and have it score your 'golden ears' in a purely objective and repeatable fashion with no subtle cues such as blasting your favorite audio test suite for your wife while you joyously prance around the kitchen bragging about how good it sounds. Then come here and tell me all about the advantages of cable cooking.

    Of course no one is going to do the science necessary to put the final nail in this Frankenstein's coffin. Those with the money to afford it have nothing to gain by proving themselves to be charlatans and hucksters, and those without the money to afford it, well they cannot afford it! No university professor is going to approve it as a master's or doctoral thesis. Even proposing such a thesis could get one tossed out on one's behind, along with the copper bracelets and wrist magnets and magic crystals and Homeopathy.
    Since you are so concerned about preventing the innocent from being taken advantage of, and since you have such impeccable technical credentials and experience, why don't you order a Cable Cooker, test it with your double-blind methods and report your results?

    Quote Originally Posted by CherylJosie View Post
    Yes this is 'merely' the opinion of a somewhat less shy engineer who is not so timid as to avoid hurting the pride of people who have been taken in by a song and a dance. I am thinking of the best interests of those sitting on the fence, who might fall prey to the hucksters in the near future.
    Great. I look forward to reading your evaluation results.
    "Polk SDA-SRSs are hopelessly out of date both sonically and technologically... I see no value whatsoever in older SDA speakers."~Audio Asylum Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Erik Tracy View Post
    It must have been a REALLY slow day on the 'other' forums for red rover to come over....
    Who is "red rover"?
    "Polk SDA-SRSs are hopelessly out of date both sonically and technologically... I see no value whatsoever in older SDA speakers."~Audio Asylum Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by DarqueKnight View Post
    Who is "red rover"?
    It's an 'old school' game of "red rover rover send xxx over" in an attempt to break the line of kids across from you.

    I must be old...

    H9: If you don't trust what you are hearing, then maybe you need to be less invested in a hobby which all the pleasure comes from listening to music.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DarqueKnight View Post
    Who is "red rover"?
    The red herring that is CherylJosie!
    "Unwad those panties and have a good time man. We're all here to help each other, no matter how it might appear." DSkip
    I may have an addiction... RTA-15TL, SDA 2, LSi25, LSi15, LSi9, LSi7, LSiCx2, LSiFX, LS/FX, RT/FX, DSW MP2000...and that's just the Polks...

  17. #77

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    Quote Originally Posted by CherylJosie View Post
    For those of you who are unaware of the definition of the word 'theory' please be advised that a theory is a testable and tested and refined and retested hypothesis. A theory is regarded as the next best thing to a fact by scientists and treated as indistinguishable from fact unless some revolutionary new advance in science has called a previously accepted theory into question.
    This is a good point, and needs constant repeating.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueFox View Post
    This is a good point, and needs constant repeating.
    Another good point is knowing the proper application and limitations of a particular theory.
    "Polk SDA-SRSs are hopelessly out of date both sonically and technologically... I see no value whatsoever in older SDA speakers."~Audio Asylum Member
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