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  1. #1

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    Default Bi-Amp TSI400 Just Don't Understand use/how to

    Hi All:

    I have been reading as many FAQ and threads I can and still have no idea what Bi-amping is all about. I must be thick. I like playing with my "toys" and tweak things. Using a PC generated sweep program as well as using my AVIA DVD I use my ears and my "cheap" Radioshack Sound level meter. Both my ears and my meter agree I am actually quite flat from 800 to well beyond my hearing (14K yes I am over 50). I am trying to solve 2 challenges:

    1) Bass too high +3to +6 db (some resonances but not what the main issue is) from 20 to around 150hZ (this is where the level matches the level at 800) I got the low end 150hz and lower to be as stated can't seem to get better but not bad, To get this I set the Mains (my TSI400's) to small and bass to SWFR on my Yamaha receiver so 80hz and below including LFE is all sent to and handled by my subwoofer. Seems like the 50hz subwoofer roll-off and the amplifier roll-off or both are not fast enough my subwoofer is 12db/octave no idea what the Amplifier's is. Any ideas on how to improve this?

    2) Main issue (no pun intended) is between 150 to 800. From 150 (-3db) 500 (-8db) 800 (-3db).

    Can I use the Bi-amping to improve this and if so how is this done. Link appreciated to thread if there is one.

    Thanks all and HAPPY NEW YEAR :)

    sorry if this post is confusing I am not all that experienced.
    Last edited by hardwork12; 01-02-2010 at 05:21 PM. Reason: Forgot to subscribe

  2. #2

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    Default Some additional thought I had

    BTW I have a Yamaha HTR-5550 so no line level outputs for my Main speakers but I do have a line level output to the Subwoofer.

    In my problem 1 the 20hz to 150 HZ issue is there a Bass equalizer that would allow for adjusting this? I see bass guitar equalizers are in this band or is this a dumb idea.

    For problem 2 the 150hz to 800hz is there any equalizers on the market than can allow for this adjustment given no line level outputs.

    Thanks again !!!!

  3. #3

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    Default

    From what I am seeing and reading about your receiver it does not support bi amping. Also I think you would get much better sound with a new more powerful receiver. 75 watts is not really a lot. Now bi amping if you have 4 terminals on the ack of your speaker that means you can do this. You would go into your setting and tell it that you are using 2 separate channels together to bi amp a speaker. That usually means having a 7.1 channel receiver and only wiring it for 5.1 because you are using the other 2 speaker terminals towards powering the front left and right. Usually bi amping is one speaker wire going to the woofers and the other the tweeters. I still personally would recommend getting a bigger amp such as 100 watts a channel. The lower end yamahas are not that powerful. I use to have one and was not pleased with it.
    HT setup
    Panasonic 50" TH-50PZ80U
    Denon DBP-1610
    Monster HTS 1650
    Carver A400X
    MIT Exp 3 Speaker Wire
    Kef 104/2
    URC MX-780 Remote
    Sonos Play 1

    Living Room
    63 inch Samsung PN63C800YF
    Polk Surroundbar 3000
    Samsung BD-C7900

  4. #4

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    Default

    Thanks for the response. I don't seem to hear any distortion and get 85 db sound levels while set at -32 on the volume so I think the speakers efficiency seems to allow the 75 watt to be OK but I could be wrong.

    Actually I do not use any of the DSP or the receiver enough to need them. All I really need is Digital Dolby decoding and Stereo (when 5.1 not available) amplifier. This system is for TV and music from Pandora.com, cable, DVD's etc.

    Is there an economical product that also would help me solve the problems I described as that is more of an equalization problem (the Yamaha may just have bad bass management and has no equalization only a bass and treble shelf filter for the mains) .

    Any recommendations/approaches appreciated.

  5. #5

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    Yamahas are 'funny' AVRs because they are quite powerful in 2 channel but their power drops RADICALLY when driving a surround set of 5 to 7 speakers--more than some other brands like Denon, Onkyo, and Harman Kardon for example!

    So it's NOT surprising that you may get some decent levels at 2.0 but try 5.0 and see what you get?

    cnh

  6. #6

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    Default

    Harkwork, distortion does not have anything to do with the quality of sound. Yes 75 watts can drive speakers but your receiver probably is not even really producing that. A better receiver will allow them to be driven a bit harder "speakers" and sound a lot better.
    HT setup
    Panasonic 50" TH-50PZ80U
    Denon DBP-1610
    Monster HTS 1650
    Carver A400X
    MIT Exp 3 Speaker Wire
    Kef 104/2
    URC MX-780 Remote
    Sonos Play 1

    Living Room
    63 inch Samsung PN63C800YF
    Polk Surroundbar 3000
    Samsung BD-C7900

  7. #7

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    Maybe part of your problem is as others have mentioned above,and part of the problem is your age. I too am approaching that age when your hearing becomes more sensitive to higher freq. Some speakers have shrill highs that I just can't listen to, like KLIPSCH speakers. Anyway,the yammie receiver combined with the speakers you have in my opinion are not a good match. May I suggest the older RT line which is a warmer sounding line,also fairly cheap, with a more powerfull receiver, that has analog outputs to add an amp down the line. The LSI line is also warmer on the top than the RTI line but you will need an amp to drive those. Your yammie receiver is probably the reason you can't get the sub to intergrate well with the speakers also. Just saying because we don't know how you have the room set up. A reflective room, wood floors, lots of mirrors,no curtains, can be very troublesome to set up. Lots of variables but the most obvious is the gear you have for your ageing ears...no offence ment my friend.

  8. #8

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    Tony he is going to need a much bigger receiver for a set of LSI's. But yes I agree with you about the receiver.
    HT setup
    Panasonic 50" TH-50PZ80U
    Denon DBP-1610
    Monster HTS 1650
    Carver A400X
    MIT Exp 3 Speaker Wire
    Kef 104/2
    URC MX-780 Remote
    Sonos Play 1

    Living Room
    63 inch Samsung PN63C800YF
    Polk Surroundbar 3000
    Samsung BD-C7900

  9. #9

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    Tonyb, cnH, bigaudiofanatic and of course others thanks given that information and for now just going to get the best I can with what I have which sounds pretty good better when the money allows is in the future.

    Tonyb:

    No offense taken you are right on and I did audition the Klipsch and they were way too bright the TSI400 seemed very pleasing to my ears. I brought music and soundtracks I was familiar with to help me.

    bigaudiofanatic:

    I use AVIA to help set-up and balance system I am sure you and others are right about the power as AVIA does not really test that but I do use the PINK noise features for each individual channel to balance the sound level around the room and can get all to within +/- 1db (at my recliner). When I use the feature that drives all channels simultaneously I do get a very full PINK noise room filling sound at very high level (don't remember the db reading) but it was higher than individual speakers by a margin (probably not a good test but the best test I have.

    ALL:

    I do have a PC hooked up to the system so if there is some freeware that is very good (or reasonably prices SW) I can use it as I have a 7.1/5.1 capable sound card please recommend :) OK tonyb I do have to tweak the treble shelf filter to my "OLD" ears ;) I do have SW that allows me to generate stereo sweeps or play single frequencies.

    Given price what would you recommend I look for I can troll refurb sites Craigs list etc and find a good deal.

    Given the unanimous consensus that power is an issue I did one obvious change (power related) I had 16 gauge wires on my mains (dumb). Given the speakers can be Bi-wired with my set-up (can not Bi-amp) I put 12 gauge on the bass side and used the 16 gauge for the highs. I have not rebalanced yet but the bass is much much better and overall frequency response and clarity is noticeably better. After rebalance maybe this will help the low end issue I had to some extent. Botttom line the system sounds better even without re-balance.

    My room is a carpeted cathedral ceiling 24x16 room, with a large sectional couch, so not a box but again a big room and definitely agree power is an issue. Avoiding most resonances seems to be under control.

    Thanks again all !!!!!!!!!!!! Really appreciate the help

  10. #10

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    Default

    OH forgot I am not using a center channel speaker I am diverting this to the Mains. Imaging very good.

  11. #11

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    Ahh cabling...why not use 12 ga all around ? How about your interconnects ? Cables act like a sort of tone control. Experiment a bit,ya never know untill you try.

  12. #12

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    tonyb:

    Well you and others made me realize I needed to look into the wiring given the power issue and what I found on bi-wiring. I used what I had around and the 12 gauge is an estimate. Maybe what I did is not the best but I used what I had. I had approx 50 feet of 16 gauge speaker cable (kind that looks like a power cord). I twisted two lengths of this together and connected all four 16 gauge wires together to form each of the four wires I needed (marked the ends for the "+" so I did not mess up with the polarity of the bi-wiring). Did not have enough to do the same for the high connection but will take you advice when I get some more wire I needed 6 total 11 foot wires so needed 66 feet to do what I did. I kept all wires same length figure this balances impedance of the wiring (maybe overkill). May have enough left to double the wiring for the highs.

    The connections for the Bass are Bare wire ends crushed under the binding posts and the highs are using the original wires which are plugged in using banana plugs. This way it all fit.

    No idea if the bi-wiring is better than just a heavier wire and the jumper at the speakers but seems like it is a better way.

    Thanks again !!!!!!!

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