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  1. #1

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    Default ps3 cd playback.

    So, I finally put my ps3 up against every other thing in my house that will play a cd. I have to admit the damn thing sounds good. It came down to it and an old denon dvd2800 player I have. I thought the denon had great sound but the ps3, after a little fiddling, surpasses it in every aspect. Anyone else do any serious listening (2 ch,cd) with a "gaming console"?

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    I don’t know if it’s serious, but I listen to all my music through the PS3. I’ve got everything copied to the hard drive and I play it from there – always wondered if it adversely affected the sound compared to actual cd players…

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    CDs sound Ok through a PS3...but there are better sounding CDPs out there...maybe your AVR has great DACs and wavesmoothing algorithms...it might be your AVR that's more in play...how do you have the PS3 hooked up and how did you hook up the Denon...with the Denon you want to try both analog and digital hookup because it's very possible the Denon will sound 'better' in analog depending on your AVR....

    When you hook up everything coax or optical then the sound is 'mostly' determined by the DACs in the Avr?

    cnh

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    Quote Originally Posted by adabro View Post
    I don’t know if it’s serious, but I listen to all my music through the PS3. I’ve got everything copied to the hard drive and I play it from there – always wondered if it adversely affected the sound compared to actual cd players…
    Playing them off the PS3s hard drive is bad because the PS3 generally rips them in lossy formats (MP3 AAC etc...) not lossless which is what you want, but as to CD play back it fine and dandy sweet as cotton candy.

    However it not as a good as a PS1 I know that seems weird but trust me, if you have a PS1 give it a shoot over the PS3.

    The PS1 came out during a time SONY was trying to promote the CD format and thusly had some rather NICE internals.
    Last edited by MANSKITO; 01-19-2010 at 11:47 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cnh View Post
    CDs sound Ok through a PS3...but there are better sounding CDPs out there...maybe your AVR has great DACs and wavesmoothing algorithms...it might be your AVR that's more in play...how do you have the PS3 hooked up and how did you hook up the Denon...with the Denon you want to try both analog and digital hookup because it's very possible the Denon will sound 'better' in analog depending on your AVR....

    When you hook up everything coax or optical then the sound is 'mostly' determined by the DACs in the Avr?

    cnh
    I m not sure if I totally by into DACs are the end all be all, sure they do a lot towards sound but coming from the PC world i have heard many different sound cards (all other things being equal) which for the most part had the same or similar generic DACs but sounded worlds different.

    If you ask me (which no one did) I think the other stuff is just as important as the DACS. And peeps shouldn't get so caught up in what DACs they have so much as the total quality of the product.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MANSKITO View Post
    Playing them off the PS3s hard drive is bad because the PS3 generally rips them in lossy formats (MP3 AAC etc...) not lossless which is what you want, but as to CD play back it fine and dandy sweet as cotton candy.

    However it not as a good as a PS1 I know that seems weird but trust me, if you have a PS1 give it a shoot over the PS3.

    The PS1 came out during a time SONY was trying to promote the CD format and thusly had some rather NICE internals.
    Good point about the PS1...there are some great reviews online about that.

    But I think the OP is talking about inserting an actual CD and playing it. The PS3 can play CDs just like any other CDP player--without storing them on its hard drive. It is that playback that the OP is talking about above...since the Denon does not rip anything or store anything.

    But you are right..Sony because its got a Copy protection up its A$$ thing and since it owns a lot of CD labels is terrified of lossless copying onto its hard drive...the solution.....take your hard drive out--and put lossless files on your self or upgrade the size of the hard drive.

    Or use something like a PS3 Server by google to stream lossless CD files from any laptop or desktop.

    cnh

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    Quote Originally Posted by MANSKITO View Post
    Playing them off the PS3s hard drive is bad because the PS3 generally rips them in lossy formats (MP3 AAC etc...) not lossless which is what you want, but as to CD play back it fine and dandy sweet as cotton candy.
    I did not know that - I'll do some testing with my CD's tonight..

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    Quote Originally Posted by MANSKITO View Post
    I m not sure if I totally by into DACs are the end all be all, sure they do a lot towards sound but coming from the PC world i have heard many different sound cards (all other things being equal) which for the most part had the same or similar generic DACs but sounded worlds different.

    If you ask me (which no one did) I think the other stuff is just as important as the DACS. And peeps shouldn't get so caught up in what DACs they have so much as the total quality of the product.
    I don't disagree and that's not all I am saying...note above..Denon's have, conceivably a better CD transport and jitter control...most also have algorithms for smoothing out quantization errors in digital signals that make them sound more like analog (many good AVRS also have such features!) Construction and circuitry are also important as well as the better DACs in the Denon?....it's 'not' simply DACs though. A lot of people here will swear that adding a 500-1000 dollar DAC to a good CD transport will improve your sound.

    I don't understand your point. It is common procedure to test your CDP with digital hook up against analog...in almost all cases you will hear a difference. And the difference is not consistent....some sound better on digital others through analog because of the very factors you mention and DACs.

    Finally, when you hook up most CDPs to an AVR digitally the AVR takes charge of ALL of the decoding and processing to convert it into analog sound....therefore the AVR most definitely is the most important link in that chain. The only factor the CDP contributes is how good its transport and reading functions are--those are important...but in most cases you won't hear differences there in low end players


    cnh
    Last edited by cnh; 01-20-2010 at 12:27 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cnh View Post
    I don't disagree and that's not all I am saying...note above..Denon's have, conceivably a better CD transport and jitter control...most also have algorithms for smoothing out quantization errors in digital signals that make them sound more like analog (many good AVRS also have such features!) Construction and circuitry are also important as well as the better DACs in the Denon?....it's 'not' simply DACs though. A lot of people here will swear that adding a 500-1000 dollar DAC to a good CD transport will improve your sound.

    I don't understand your point. It is common procedure to test your CDP with digital hook up against analog...in almost all cases you will hear a difference. And the difference is not consistent....some sound better on digital others through analog because of the very factors you mention and DACs.

    Finally, when you hook up most CDPs to an AVR digitally the AVR takes charge of ALL of the decoding and processing to convert it into analog sound....therefore the AVR most definitely is the most important link in that chain. The only factor the CDP contributes is how good its transport and reading functions are--those are important...but in most cases you won't hear differences there in low end players


    cnh
    I didn't have much of a point other then I think people give too much credit to DACs then there worth. Not saying they don't do it for some people or for that matter any one person with the cash.


    I really should of posted and not quoted you wasn't really responding to you, you generally know more then me lol.

    any ways I think as far as a source gos if it plays games The sega CD or the SONY PS1 are the best options and the only options that will get you the same sound as say a $100-300 (or more in some cases) CD player. The PS3 while newer has CD play back as like a just a check mark in list of features, but the PS1 actually has a nice CD player built into it and will make a difference regardless of your AVR or DAC.

    The ps1 is a better CD player is my point lol.

    That or a PS3 with lossless playback is the only thing i would use in my home.

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    It's cool I don't disagree there...for most people the PS3 will perform as well as most entry and some low mid CDPs and the reviews for the PS1 were quite impressive....it went up again some pricier equipment and held its own.

    In general Sony knows how to make a CDP and lossless playback from the PS3 through my mid-fi Denon is pretty good....and a hell of a lot 'easier' than having to fuss with finding the actual CD..lol

    Sorry if I came across as a bit acrid...I'm here in Beijing with a headcold that refuses to go away and I'm going through some serious Audio withdrawal since all I can listen to are lossless files on my laptop through a 100 dollar pair of Sony headphones.

    Ok, it could be worse...actually the Sonys are not that bad.

    cnh

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    Keep in mind the PS1 they're talking about is the one with the integrated RCA outputs soldered to the back of the unit, not the multi-av only units that were predominate after the first generation.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MANSKITO View Post
    However it not as a good as a PS1 I know that seems weird but trust me, if you have a PS1 give it a shoot over the PS3
    Have heard that a few times now, wish had kept my old one, lol.

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    The ps3 is hooked up via hdmi. The denon is hooked up vie toslink and analog out jacks. Being that back in the day this was a $1000.00+ dvd player I think (hope) it has a good transport, the thing weighs about 20 pounds. I'm damn impressed with that ps3. It upconverts cd's and has user-adjustable bitmapping. I will give it another test with the supplied analog cord it came with, which I've never used.
    Oh, and I'll look and see if I still have my ps1...

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    I too am impressed by my PS3 and it's overall versatility. Man that was a good investment, lol.

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    Quote Originally Posted by allstock View Post
    The ps3 is hooked up via hdmi. The denon is hooked up vie toslink and analog out jacks. Being that back in the day this was a $1000.00+ dvd player I think (hope) it has a good transport, the thing weighs about 20 pounds. I'm damn impressed with that ps3. It upconverts cd's and has user-adjustable bitmapping. I will give it another test with the supplied analog cord it came with, which I've never used.
    Oh, and I'll look and see if I still have my ps1...
    SONY allows you to upconvert a CD? I don't remember seeing that on the PS3--which model do you have...also what kind of AVR are you running and do you notice the 'difference' between running the Denon digital and analog in 2 channel...?

    cnh

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    I haven't checked in a while, but doesn't the PS3 upscale all music to 48kHz from their native 44.1kHz.

    I pretty sure this was why I stopped using the PS3 for music playback (both CD and streaming via TVersity) and moved to the AppleTV/Mac Mini combo. All my problems went right away. BTW, 90% of my music files are ripped in ALAC with the remainder as AAC or MP3.

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    As far as I know the PS3 only upconverts DVD's.

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    Quote Originally Posted by louhamilton View Post
    I haven't checked in a while, but doesn't the PS3 upscale all music to 48kHz from their native 44.1kHz.

    I pretty sure this was why I stopped using the PS3 for music playback (both CD and streaming via TVersity) and moved to the AppleTV/Mac Mini combo. All my problems went right away. BTW, 90% of my music files are ripped in ALAC with the remainder as AAC or MP3.
    I couldn't say but if it does YOU would have to choose such an option in the audio menu...my unit is in the U.S. so I can't check it...in any case...

    as far as I understand it CD upconversion is as follows 44.1 to 88.2 to 176.4 etc...in other words multiples of upsampling 2, 4 and so on..

    My Yamaha Universal Player does that as well and my Denon AVR 2807 upsamples 4x.

    48khz is not really a relevant upconversion...aren't we really just talking about DVD sound there?

    cnh
    Last edited by cnh; 01-20-2010 at 09:59 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MANSKITO View Post
    I didn't have much of a point other then I think people give too much credit to DACs then there worth. Not saying they don't do it for some people or for that matter any one person with the cash.


    I really should of posted and not quoted you wasn't really responding to you, you generally know more then me lol.

    any ways I think as far as a source gos if it plays games The sega CD or the SONY PS1 are the best options and the only options that will get you the same sound as say a $100-300 (or more in some cases) CD player. The PS3 while newer has CD play back as like a just a check mark in list of features, but the PS1 actually has a nice CD player built into it and will make a difference regardless of your AVR or DAC.

    The ps1 is a better CD player is my point lol.

    That or a PS3 with lossless playback is the only thing i would use in my home.
    I somewhat agree and disagree with your statement over the role of DACs.

    Sure there can be some over analysis of the specific DACs being used in any piece of gear, but folks don't seem to fully realize that the analog 'output' stage of a piece of gear is not just the DAC - there are other components in the signal path from the DAC to the actual connector on the back. And the WHOLE output stage design, circuit board layout, choice of correspsonding components, their values - ALL of these play into the final resultant signal 'quality'.

    Even if two pieces of gear use the identical DAC, there still could be sonic differences to users based on how the rest of the analog output stage is engineered and assembled between the two pieces of gear.

    H9: If you don't trust what you are hearing, then maybe you need to be less invested in a hobby which all the pleasure comes from listening to music.

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    This site seems to have good info re ps3.http://www.ps3sacd.com/faq.html

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    Quote Originally Posted by cnh View Post
    I couldn't say but if it does YOU would have to choose such an option in the audio menu...my unit is in the U.S. so I can't check it...in any case...

    as far as I understand it CD upconversion is as follows 44.1 to 88.2 to 176.4 etc...in other words multiples of upsampling 2, 4 and so on..

    My Yamaha Universal Player does that as well and my Denon AVR 2807 upsamples 4x.

    48khz is not really a relevant upconversion...aren't we really just talking about DVD sound there?

    cnh
    The ps3 allows you to choose higher sampling rates like you suggested above. It's one of the settings from the xmedia bar and offers several options. There are a lot of user definable settings from the set-up menu for audio/video tweaking. The ps3 gives you a lot of control over many different forms of media playback, not just DVD or Blu-ray. Definitely worth going through all the menus for the perfectionists out there.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cnh View Post
    I couldn't say but if it does YOU would have to choose such an option in the audio menu...my unit is in the U.S. so I can't check it...in any case...

    as far as I understand it CD upconversion is as follows 44.1 to 88.2 to 176.4 etc...in other words multiples of upsampling 2, 4 and so on..

    My Yamaha Universal Player does that as well and my Denon AVR 2807 upsamples 4x.

    48khz is not really a relevant upconversion...aren't we really just talking about DVD sound there?

    cnh
    I just confirmed that it plays my standard CD's at 44.1kHz. Surprisingly, it no longer plays my DTS-encoded CD's (which my Oppo plays fine). However, it upconverts ALL music files to 48kHz no matter which AUdio output setting you have chosen in the menu). This is where the problem lies and the MAIN reason for me moving to an AppleTV setup. By upconverting my 44.1kHz encoded WAV files to 48kHz, it changes the encoding and therefore, any DTS encoded WAV files/CD become unreadable by my receiver and sound like static and screachy noises.

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    Really the truth of the matter is stuff is best left alone in its NATIVE ress. When you upcovert you are in effect guessing where the new bits of data(that where created during the upcoverison process) should be placed, no matter how good the math is (it can be damn good) you still won't have as good of sound if you have left well enough alone.

    Upconversion is only really good for instances where the native ress of the screen (monitor tv etc..) is much higher then the native signal, in these instances the image would look worse blown up then it would being upconverted . In those instances you really are choosing between the lesser of 2 evils.
    What you want is Native ress of the source to match exactly pixel for pixel to the Native ress of the display.

    But when it comes to music or any other form of audio there is no reason to upconvert because speakers do not have a native ress that you have to match the incoming signal too. If you can disable that feature do so you will get better sound.

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    all in all......if u dont have a ps3......get one!
    IT DOES EVERYTHING!!!!!
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    Quote Originally Posted by MANSKITO View Post
    Really the truth of the matter is stuff is best left alone in its NATIVE ress. When you upcovert you are in effect guessing where the new bits of data(that where created during the upcoverison process) should be placed, no matter how good the math is (it can be damn good) you still won't have as good of sound if you have left well enough alone.

    Upconversion is only really good for instances where the native ress of the screen (monitor tv etc..) is much higher then the native signal, in these instances the image would look worse blown up then it would being upconverted . In those instances you really are choosing between the lesser of 2 evils.
    What you want is Native ress of the source to match exactly pixel for pixel to the Native ress of the display.

    But when it comes to music or any other form of audio there is no reason to upconvert because speakers do not have a native ress that you have to match the incoming signal too. If you can disable that feature do so you will get better sound.
    Well put. However...
    In my rig it sounds better upconverted to 176.4. I used to be a "straight wire with gain" type of guy, but then along comes Audessey etc. I'm not sure exactly how the "bitmapping" thing works but it does make a difference.

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    A little off topic, but I find very annnoying and disappointing that 96 kHz LPCM over optical is not an option for the PS3 with DVD videos containing 96 kHz sampling rates.

    I have a couple very nice sounding concert videos with stereo 96 kHz LPCM tracks, which the PS3 will not pass through as 96 kHz to my AVR over optical (96 kHz will no longer light up on my AVR now that I'm using a PS3 for DVDs).

    This seems like a real goof by Sony. Pretty much any modern DVD player will output 96 kHz LPCM over optical/coax.
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    Quote Originally Posted by allstock View Post
    Well put. However...
    In my rig it sounds better upconverted to 176.4. I used to be a "straight wire with gain" type of guy, but then along comes Audessey etc. I'm not sure exactly how the "bitmapping" thing works but it does make a difference.
    Ah well I'm sure you are hearing a difference I wouldn't for a second dought that. But to weather that "difference" is positive is another question entirely.

    Bitmaps work thus, a computer assigns a value to a piece of information and generates something along the lines of a quadrant plane or map if you will, and uses said map to, A, place the pixels in there proper place on your screen or B, based on the first map that was generated assgins those bit(s) of data new value(s) or generates new/more value(s) that can be used in the map when you up scale/down scale/compress the image so as to be able to recreate said image on screen in its new form. (this is whats done in many popular image formats such as JPEG )

    But no matter what you do to the image (upscale, down scale, compress etc..) the important thing to note is that the image either contains less/more/different information then the first signal the computer received no matter what the level of detail was used in creating the original bit map.

    The same holds true for audio information, no matter how "awesome" the original bit map was you are still guessing at least to a small extent to where the new information should go or in some cases which bits of information to throw out.

    You will end up with an image that could very well look sharper (or in this case hear more detail) but please note that any new detail is for all instances and purposes artificial.

    on a side note if one wanted to create a file formate that could be upscaled or downscaled freely with minimal information loss/generation. They would use something akin to Vector graphics.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vector_graphics
    Last edited by MANSKITO; 01-20-2010 at 08:37 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MANSKITO View Post
    Ah well I'm sure you are hearing a difference I wouldn't for a second dought that. But to weather that "difference" is positive is another question entirely.

    Bitmaps work thus, a computer assigns a value to a piece of information and generates something along the lines of a quadrant plane or map if you will, and uses said map to, A, place the pixels in there proper place on your screen or B, based on the first map that was generated assgins those bit(s) of data new value(s) or generates new/more value(s) that can be used in the map when you up scale/down scale/compress the image so as to be able to recreate said image on screen in its new form. (this is whats done in many popular image formats such as JPEG )

    But no matter what you do to the image (upscale, down scale, compress etc..) the important thing to note is that the image either contains less/more/different information then the first signal the computer received no matter what the level of detail was used in creating the original bit map.

    The same holds true for audio information, not matter how "awesome" the original bit map was you are still guessing at least to a small extent to where the new information should go or in some cases which bits of information to throw out.

    You will end up with an image that could very well look sharper (or in this case hear more detail) but please note that any new detail is for all instances and purposes artificial.

    on a side note if one wanted to create a file formate that could be upscaled or downscaled freely with minimal information loss/generation. They would use something akin to Vector graphics.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vector_graphics
    I "hear" where your coming from. But I didn't specify that it just sounded "different". I said it sounds, to me,on my rig, in my room, with my reference material, "better". If you get the opportunity to compare, give it a go. What isn't "supposed" to work with audio sometimes does, no? Some people swear the the ps1 sounds awesome, but the specs don't indicate that, at least the reviews I looked at don't. Do a search, I did.:)

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    On i m on the same level as you m8, the sound produced would appear to be better on any ones system with any reference material

    Just the differences would be artificial is my point. Its in the same vein as EQing you can produce a sound that is more appealing to the ears, its just if your after accurate reproduction of sound (meaning that you want to as close as possible the master recording) then upscaling is a no no. But to each his own, in fact i some times enjoy a sound that has been doctored up.


    maybe i did get heavy handed with the ""s lol. sorry if I sounded condescending its very hard to get all your message to some one when your are limited to text only.

    And ya i believe with all my heart that the PS1 is the bees knees, i have heard the thing AND what most people don't know is the Sega CD is damn close to as good. if you haven't given either the PS1 or the sega CD a try its well worth it if you are tight on cash.
    Last edited by MANSKITO; 01-20-2010 at 08:55 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MANSKITO View Post
    On i m on the same level as you m8, the sound produced would appear to be better on any ones system with any reference material

    Just the differences would be artificial is my point. Its in the same vein as EQing you can produce a sound that is more appealing to the ears, its just if your after accurate reproduction of sound (meaning that you want to as close as possible the master recording) then upscaling is a no no. But to each his own, in fact i some times enjoy a sound that has been doctored up.


    maybe i did get heavy handed with the ""s lol. sorry if I sounded condescending its very hard to get all your message to some one when your are limited to text only.

    And ya i believe with all my heart that the PS1 is the bees knees, i have heard the thing AND what most people don't know is the Sega CD is damn close to as good. if you haven't given either the PS1 or the sega CD a try its well worth it if you are tight on cash.
    I gotta have a look for that ps1. I owned one and i think it'd buried somewhere in the basement. IMO all recorded music is doctored. Unless your sitting in front of a live band,it goes from from mics to cables to mixer to analog to digital to analog to digital to storage medium to player to cables to dac to pre-amp to amp to cables to speakers to room acoustics. It's ALL doctored. I gave up on the straight wire with gain idea years ago.:(

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