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  1. #1
    Lorthos
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    Default So what am I missing....

    If anything....

    Hello

    Just had a question about the audio on the new blu-rays. I'm still running my original Denon AVR-2802 and have a 6.1 setup on it. Would it warrant a new receiver just to be able to decode the Dolby TrueHd and the DTS-HD tracks?

    Would my ears thank me?

    This is the speaker set I'm running with the rear center the same as the front center:

    http://www.crutchfield.com/S-Zd5O968...s.html?o=m&c=4

  2. #2

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    Well, your AVR has 5.1 analog inputs. You could use a BR player with analog outs to decode the HD audio tracks then send them to the AVR via analog cables.

  3. #3
    Lorthos
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zeros View Post
    Well, your AVR has 5.1 analog inputs. You could use a BR player with analog outs to decode the HD audio tracks then send them to the AVR via analog cables.
    I'm using an original release PS3 for the blu-ray player, and would like to keep using that for now....

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    Yeah, then I suppose you will need a receiver with HDMI to get HD audio from that PS3.

  5. #5
    Lorthos
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zeros View Post
    Yeah, then I suppose you will need a receiver with HDMI to get HD audio from that PS3.
    Wow, thats it, the only guidance I get....I know that part. What I'm asking is do you guys think its worth it to upgrade the receiver? Will I notice a huge difference or subtle difference in sound?

    For all you that have upgraded have you noticed any difference?

    Thanks for any input!!

  6. #6

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    On that speaker set, i don't think your ears would thank you enough to warrant the upgrade.

    Now... if you're going to be upgrading from that speaker set later, absolutely.

    Out of curiousity, and because i don't have a PS3 right now, how is the PS3 connected right now? Optical?
    I don't read the newsssspaperssss because dey aaaallllllllll...... have ugly print.

  7. #7

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    mine is all hdmi for the 1080p picture
    fronts=rti12s(cherry)
    center=csi3(cherry)
    sub=psw125(cherry)
    emotiva xpa-2
    harmon kardon 354
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    monitor=lg 55inch lcd(1080p)
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    "It doesnt mean that much to me,to mean that much to you"

  8. #8

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    Quote Originally Posted by rcrook317 View Post
    mine is all hdmi for the 1080p picture
    Well... yeah, but that's not dependent on your receiver. He's asking from an audio standpoint i believe.
    I don't read the newsssspaperssss because dey aaaallllllllll...... have ugly print.

  9. #9
    Lorthos
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    Quote Originally Posted by concealer404 View Post
    On that speaker set, i don't think your ears would thank you enough to warrant the upgrade.

    Now... if you're going to be upgrading from that speaker set later, absolutely.

    Out of curiousity, and because i don't have a PS3 right now, how is the PS3 connected right now? Optical?
    Yes, its optical....and thats what I was afraid of is the current speaker set I have, that it wouldn't make too much of a difference. Don't get me wrong, its been a good starter system. It sounds great, we've been very happy with it.

    Just got a little touch of upgrade fever....

  10. #10

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lorthos View Post
    Yes, its optical....and thats what I was afraid of is the current speaker set I have, that it wouldn't make too much of a difference. Don't get me wrong, its been a good starter system. It sounds great, we've been very happy with it.

    Just got a little touch of upgrade fever....
    When i had my HT setup up and running a couple months ago, i was just using an optical cable, didn't have the new formats, and it still sounded great.

    I wouldn't worry about it if i were in your shoes. You've got the Blu Ray picture, you've got a sub, and you can hear stuff behind you. What more do you need? :p

    If you've got upgrade fever, i'd start with looking at a set of better main speakers if you've got the space. :D
    I don't read the newsssspaperssss because dey aaaallllllllll...... have ugly print.

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    I agree that with the speakers you are currently running, you wouldn't hear much of a difference in the new HD formats. I use my PS3 as a Blu Ray player as well, hooked up via HDMI and with the speakers in my sig. the difference between the "old" DD and the new HD codecs is night and day. I actually loath having to rent a movie in SD instead of Blu Ray mostly because of the audio, lol. I agree with Ben (concealer404), if you want to upgrade anything, start with your speakers.

    -Jeff
    HT Rig
    Receiver- Onkyo TX-SR806
    Mains- Polk Audio Monitor 70
    Center- Polk Audio CS2
    Surrounds- Polk Audio TSi 500's :D
    Sub- Polk Audio PSW125
    Retired- Polk Audio Monitor 40's
    T.V.- 60" Sony SXRD KDS-60A2000 LCoS
    Blu-Ray- 80 GB PS3


    2 CH rig (in progress)
    Polk Audio Monitor 10A's

    It's not that I'm insensitive, I just don't care.. :D

  12. #12

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    There's a noticeable difference with the new codecs, but it's not enough to make me feel like I need to run out and get a Blu-ray player. Even the upgraded picture of Blu-ray hasn't been enough to sell me on one yet though. Maybe it's just me...but I really don't see the night and day differences that other people talk about. Better? Yes...but it's not like watching a movie for the first time again in my experience. This is coming from the guy who just disassembled his HT rig because it never got used though...so my priorities don't really lie in HT.


    That being said...I'd have to agree with the others that your current speaker set would make the changes a bit negligible. I'd work on upgrading at least your front L/R and center channel first.

    Just my $.02
    The nirvana inducer-
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  13. #13

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    Maybe I was a bit overzealous when I said night and day difference Curt, lol. However, IMHO there is quite a difference between them, YMMV.

    -Jeff
    HT Rig
    Receiver- Onkyo TX-SR806
    Mains- Polk Audio Monitor 70
    Center- Polk Audio CS2
    Surrounds- Polk Audio TSi 500's :D
    Sub- Polk Audio PSW125
    Retired- Polk Audio Monitor 40's
    T.V.- 60" Sony SXRD KDS-60A2000 LCoS
    Blu-Ray- 80 GB PS3


    2 CH rig (in progress)
    Polk Audio Monitor 10A's

    It's not that I'm insensitive, I just don't care.. :D

  14. #14

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    [QUOTE=Lorthos;1266941]
    Just had a question about the audio on the new blu-rays. I'm still running my original Denon AVR-2802 and have a 6.1 setup on it. Would it warrant a new receiver just to be able to decode the Dolby TrueHd and the DTS-HD tracks?
    QUOTE]

    First, I’m no expert.;)

    Secondly, you will need the following for you HT experience in Dolby TrueHD and DTS-HD from Blue-ray.

    1. HDMI inputs and outputs.
    Why, Optical output does not have the bandwidth to send 7.1 formats which is one of the benefits for the Blue-ray. Optical is only 5.1. Also, look to get HDMI 1.3v and keep shorter cable lengths.

    2. A new Blue-ray player.
    Why, Sony Playstation sadly will not send Dolby TrueHD and DTS-HD codec without DOWNMIXING them to PCM whether using HDMI or Optical cable. Playstation is only going to send Dolby Digital 5.1 or DTS straight thru. This is a sad but true fact which I recently have come face to face with.
    Your new Blue-ray player must send these codecs thru without down mixing them to you receiver via HDMI. The new player will have the logos Dolby TrueHD and DTS-HD on them.

    3. You will need a new AVR (audio video receiver).
    To decode the new Blue-ray content, it must have a processor that can use the raw un-down-mixed HDMI sent audio Dolby TrueHD and DTS-HD formats.
    These formats can be in 7.1 or 5.1 and will sound better whether you have the new 7.1 physical speaker setup or not. The new AVR will have the logos Dolby TrueHD and DTS-HD on them.

    Note: Dolby TrueHD and DTS-HD is an advanced LOSSLESS multi-channel audio codec which makes it better! Regular 5.1 is not lossless.
    Lossless compression is used when it is important that the original and the decompressed data be identical.

    With that being said,
    Many here only wanted you to get better speakers which is what you would hear being on a Polk Audio forum. I too second this. However, new speaker will not bring you the ability to play the new Blue-ray sourced high resolution sound. Whether your speakers are good enough for you is a choice preference.

    Audio nuts have been tricked into upgrade some if not all their audio/video items just to utilize the new HD offerings. And I’m the chief sucker of this.:(

    End of rant.
    Last edited by SRTer; 02-05-2010 at 06:40 AM.
    Fronts: Polk RTi A9
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    Receiver: Pioneer Elite SC-35 (140 watts x 7)
    Amplifier: Adcom GFA-555 Mk.II (200 watt @ 8 ohms)
    Sub: Polk DSW PRO 500 (10 inch, 200 Watt)
    TV: Samsung 59 inch 3D Plasma 600 Hz PN59D7000
    Sources: Samsung BD-D6700 3D Blu-ray Player, DirecTV, PS3, iPhone 4 and IPod Classic with Apple Lossless Tracks

  15. #15

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    [QUOTE=SRTer;1267568

    2. A new Blue-ray player.
    Why, Sony Playstation sadly will not send Dolby TrueHD and DTS-HD codec without DOWNMIXING them to PCM whether using HDMI or Optical cable. The new player will have the logos Dolby TrueHD and DTS-HD on them.

    3. You will need a new AVR (audio video receiver).
    To decode the new Blue-ray content, it must have a processor that can use the raw un-down-mixed HDMI sent audio Dolby TrueHD and DTS-HD formats.
    These formats can be in 7.1 or 5.1 and will sound better whether you have the new 7.1 physical speaker setup or not. The new AVR will have the logos Dolby TrueHD and DTS-HD on them.

    With that being said,
    Many here only wanted you to get better speakers which is what you would hear being on a Polk Audio forum. I too second this. However, new speaker will not bring you the ability to play the new Blue-ray sourced high resolution sound. Whether your speakers are good enough for you is a choice preference[/QUOTE]

    The new PS3 Slim will send the HD codecs via Bitstream with no "downmixing" however the older units do send it via LPCM. IMHO, there is no difference between the two, except for the display will light up on your AVR to let you know that you are indeed listening to the HD codec. I run this configuration on my system currently and have heard the HD codecs bitstreamed on a similar setup at a friends house, with minimal differences. People say that LPCM suffers from too many "conversions" but IMHO, lossless is lossless. If he has a Blu Ray player, he may not need a new one if it doesn't do HDMI or Bitsream, he can always use the 5.1 or 7.1 analog outs on his player into the back of his AVR (if it has them too) and get the HD codecs that way too. It doesn't need to have the logos on the AVR to be able to play them. I wasn't trying to get him to buy new speakers, was just saying that with the RM6200 setup he is running, he may not notice that much of a difference and that his money would be better spent upgrading them, than to spend the money on something he may not get any gain from. It is his money and is free to do whatever he wants with it. Man I sound like a di@k tonight, I need some sleep, lol.

    -Jeff
    HT Rig
    Receiver- Onkyo TX-SR806
    Mains- Polk Audio Monitor 70
    Center- Polk Audio CS2
    Surrounds- Polk Audio TSi 500's :D
    Sub- Polk Audio PSW125
    Retired- Polk Audio Monitor 40's
    T.V.- 60" Sony SXRD KDS-60A2000 LCoS
    Blu-Ray- 80 GB PS3


    2 CH rig (in progress)
    Polk Audio Monitor 10A's

    It's not that I'm insensitive, I just don't care.. :D

  16. #16

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    You are a d1ck, Jeff. Get in the car and head west on the 21st. ......or else......

  17. #17

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    LOL, Russ. You have no idea how much I want to be there. Imma PM ya, as to cut down on the thread crapping, I've already mucked this one up pretty good. :D

    -Jeff
    HT Rig
    Receiver- Onkyo TX-SR806
    Mains- Polk Audio Monitor 70
    Center- Polk Audio CS2
    Surrounds- Polk Audio TSi 500's :D
    Sub- Polk Audio PSW125
    Retired- Polk Audio Monitor 40's
    T.V.- 60" Sony SXRD KDS-60A2000 LCoS
    Blu-Ray- 80 GB PS3


    2 CH rig (in progress)
    Polk Audio Monitor 10A's

    It's not that I'm insensitive, I just don't care.. :D

  18. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by wutadumsn23 View Post
    The new PS3 Slim will send the HD codecs via Bitstream with no "downmixing" however the older units do send it via LPCM. IMHO, there is no difference between the two,

    It is his money and is free to do whatever he wants with it. Man I sound like a di@k tonight, I need some sleep, lol.

    -Jeff
    Yes, PS3 slim does. However, he didn't say he had a PS3 slim so I figure he was just like me in that reguard.

    You say there no difference, but that's is your own thought which could be your own person taste and not fact.

    Link for Lorthos
    http://www.engadget.com/2009/08/21/p...audio-at-last/
    Fronts: Polk RTi A9
    Center: Polk CSI A6
    Rears: Polk RTi A7
    Receiver: Pioneer Elite SC-35 (140 watts x 7)
    Amplifier: Adcom GFA-555 Mk.II (200 watt @ 8 ohms)
    Sub: Polk DSW PRO 500 (10 inch, 200 Watt)
    TV: Samsung 59 inch 3D Plasma 600 Hz PN59D7000
    Sources: Samsung BD-D6700 3D Blu-ray Player, DirecTV, PS3, iPhone 4 and IPod Classic with Apple Lossless Tracks

  19. #19
    Lorthos
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    Thanks for all the input, will take it all in....I have an original release PS3 on the home theater and a PS3 slim hooked up in the bedroom so I can swap them if I want/have too.....

    Quote Originally Posted by SRTer View Post
    Yes, PS3 slim does. However, he didn't say he had a PS3 slim so I figure he was just like me in that reguard.

    You say there no difference, but that's is your own thought which could be your own person taste and not fact.

    Link for Lorthos
    http://www.engadget.com/2009/08/21/p...audio-at-last/

  20. #20

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    Take a CD and rip it to a 128k (or so) mp3 file.
    Play the CD and newly created MP3 on your system.
    How much difference do you hear?

    If you hear a lot of difference - It will be worth going to the new lossless codecs.
    If you do not hear much difference, you probably won't with the new lossless codecs either.

    There you go.. :) (your job - keep upgrading until you can't stand the sound of the MP3's... :p)

    Michael
    Mains.............Polk LSi15 (Cherry)
    Center............Polk LSiC (Crossover upgraded)
    Surrounds.......Polk LSi7 (Gloss Black - wood sides removed and crossovers upgraded)
    Subwoofers.....SVS 25-31 CS+ and PC+ (both 20hz tune)
    Pre\Pro...........NAD T163 (Modded with LM4562 opamps)
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  21. #21

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    SRTer,

    It looks like you have had a bad upgrade experience with not enough information about the new codecs. Unfortunately, you still seem to be misinformed about what is required. And people following your advice will also make a purchase with bad information and without knowing what really is required. So I'll try and clear up some of your statements. It's not a dig at you, as this stuff is really complicated at times. So please bear with me.

    Quote Originally Posted by SRTer View Post
    Sony Playstation sadly will not send Dolby TrueHD and DTS-HD codec without DOWNMIXING them to PCM whether using HDMI or Optical cable...Your new Blue-ray player must send these codecs thru without down mixing them to you receiver via HDMI. The new player will have the logos Dolby TrueHD and DTS-HD on them.
    The Playstation 3 DOES NOT DOWNMIX the TrueHD and DTS-HD MA codecs, it UNCOMPRESSES them (decodes them). There is no loss in quality, because there is no loss in digital information during this uncompression process. That's why the formats are called LOSSLESS. They take the original PCM audio file, compress it to save space on the disk, then when you uncompress it, you get the original PCM file. An AVR that receives a bitstream has to do the exact same thing when it receives the bitstream, it has to convert it to PCM. AVRs can't really play TrueHD or DTS-HD MA, the 'language' an AVR can digitally understand is PCM. And both lossless codecs must be converted back into PCM before an AVR can further process the audio signal. The ps3 just does this step earlier internally instead of the AVR doing it later at the AVR.

    Quote Originally Posted by SRTer View Post
    3. You will need a new AVR (audio video receiver).
    To decode the new Blue-ray content, it must have a processor that can use the raw un-down-mixed HDMI sent audio Dolby TrueHD and DTS-HD formats.
    You do not need an AVR that has a processor that decodes the new formats. As this can be done within the player instead. You just need an AVR that will either accept PCM over HDMI (HDMI 1.1 and above) or an AVR that will accept analog outs and a player (the ps3 can't) that can send multichannel analog to a receiver (many players do this). This gives you many more upgrade paths to take (and possible cost savings), you just have to be careful that your equipment matches enough to do one of the three paths to lossless audio.

    1. Bitstream via HDMI 1.3 from player to AVR.
    2. Decoded LPCM to AVR via HDMI 1.1 and above.
    3. Multichannel analog outs from player to AVR.

    The downside to 2 and 3 are that you may have to manually configure things like bass management as the AVR does not know what the PCM or analog signal comes from. Could be SACD, TrueHD, etc. TrueHD and DTS-HD MA need a +10db boost to the LFE channel, SACD does not, and not all AVRs apply this boost automatically. So although the configuration can be a headache, once configured properly, lossless via player decoding can sound just as stellar as bitstreaming.

    Quote Originally Posted by SRTer View Post
    Note: Dolby TrueHD and DTS-HD is an advanced LOSSLESS multi-channel audio codec which makes it better!
    Only better in that it doesn't take up as much space on the disk as an uncompressed LPCM track. These lossless formats simply make the file smaller. They don't add a single thing to the actual quality of the audio track. It's like zipping a file on a PC. Zipping doesn't make the video or audio file better, it just makes it smaller. The quality of the audio depends entirely on the original PCM file. Garbage In/Garbage Out. TrueHD and DTS-HD MA can't improve the original PCM file, they just make sure to faithfully uncompress to whatever was there in the first place. Many early blu-rays actually just used the uncompressed LPCM track (see the Disney Pirates movies) and still earned 5* audio reviews because uncompressed LPCM is the third lossless option because it was never compressed in the first place. These uncompressed LPCM tracks are also the reason why you still have to figure out either option 2 or 3 above if you want to listen to ALL the lossless tracks on blu-rays because these tracks start as PCM in the player and can't be 'bitstreamed'.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cheddar View Post
    SRTer,

    It looks like you have had a bad upgrade experience with not enough information about the new codecs. Unfortunately, you still seem to be misinformed about what is required. And people following your advice will also make a purchase with bad information and without knowing what really is required. So I'll try and clear up some of your statements. It's not a dig at you, as this stuff is really complicated at times. So please bear with me.



    The Playstation 3 DOES NOT DOWNMIX the TrueHD and DTS-HD MA codecs, it UNCOMPRESSES them (decodes them). There is no loss in quality, because there is no loss in digital information during this uncompression process. That's why the formats are called LOSSLESS. They take the original PCM audio file, compress it to save space on the disk, then when you uncompress it, you get the original PCM file. An AVR that receives a bitstream has to do the exact same thing when it receives the bitstream, it has to convert it to PCM. AVRs can't really play TrueHD or DTS-HD MA, the 'language' an AVR can digitally understand is PCM. And both lossless codecs must be converted back into PCM before an AVR can further process the audio signal. The ps3 just does this step earlier internally instead of the AVR doing it later at the AVR.



    You do not need an AVR that has a processor that decodes the new formats. As this can be done within the player instead. You just need an AVR that will either accept PCM over HDMI (HDMI 1.1 and above) or an AVR that will accept analog outs and a player (the ps3 can't) that can send multichannel analog to a receiver (many players do this). This gives you many more upgrade paths to take (and possible cost savings), you just have to be careful that your equipment matches enough to do one of the three paths to lossless audio.

    1. Bitstream via HDMI 1.3 from player to AVR.
    2. Decoded LPCM to AVR via HDMI 1.1 and above.
    3. Multichannel analog outs from player to AVR.

    The downside to 2 and 3 are that you may have to manually configure things like bass management as the AVR does not know what the PCM or analog signal comes from. Could be SACD, TrueHD, etc. TrueHD and DTS-HD MA need a +10db boost to the LFE channel, SACD does not, and not all AVRs apply this boost automatically. So although the configuration can be a headache, once configured properly, lossless via player decoding can sound just as stellar as bitstreaming.



    Only better in that it doesn't take up as much space on the disk as an uncompressed LPCM track. These lossless formats simply make the file smaller. They don't add a single thing to the actual quality of the audio track. It's like zipping a file on a PC. Zipping doesn't make the video or audio file better, it just makes it smaller. The quality of the audio depends entirely on the original PCM file. Garbage In/Garbage Out. TrueHD and DTS-HD MA can't improve the original PCM file, they just make sure to faithfully uncompress to whatever was there in the first place. Many early blu-rays actually just used the uncompressed LPCM track (see the Disney Pirates movies) and still earned 5* audio reviews because uncompressed LPCM is the third lossless option because it was never compressed in the first place. These uncompressed LPCM tracks are also the reason why you still have to figure out either option 2 or 3 above if you want to listen to ALL the lossless tracks on blu-rays because these tracks start as PCM in the player and can't be 'bitstreamed'.
    +1.

    But you forgot to mention the 'evil jitter' you may get via PCM from player to avr - never know when that may jump out and give you the 'jitters'... :D

    H9: If you don't trust what you are hearing, then maybe you need to be less invested in a hobby which all the pleasure comes from listening to music.

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    I too, always womdered what I might be missing. Mine is hooked up as well via HDMI for video and Toslink for audio. I have watched BR movies and was not blown away visually. It was good but I was not as impressed as I thought I would be. As for sound, well, right now I'm not willing to buy a new AVR. I think I'd get more out of my cash by upgrading my sub. I still wonder what it is that I am missing, if much on the audio side.
    HT- HK 335, Rotel 1075, Miova PC, AQ Indigo Speaker Cable, XLO Jumpers, AQ Diamondback ICs, AQ HDMI x2, AQ Component, Signal Cable Analog II ICs, Signal Cable Digcoax, Signal Cable Toslink, Rti8, Csi5, Rti6, Energy s10.2, Panny 42" Plasma, PS3, Harmony 1100 and Harmony PS3 Adapter, LG dvdp(for the kids), Monster 3600MKII all on a dedicated circuit.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Erik Tracy View Post
    +1.

    But you forgot to mention the 'evil jitter' you may get via PCM from player to avr - never know when that may jump out and give you the 'jitters'... :D
    It would be interesting to hear any polkies out there who have actually heard jitter when listening to lossless via PCM and the combination of equipment that produced it. Have you heard jitter when listening to lossless? How big a problem is this?

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    Quote Originally Posted by cheddar View Post
    It would be interesting to hear any polkies out there who have actually heard jitter when listening to lossless via PCM and the combination of equipment that produced it. Have you heard jitter when listening to lossless? How big a problem is this?
    Personally?

    I'd lump jitter into the same camp as 'scary LFE' and amp strain for setting mains=large so you better only let a sub handle that job.

    But...that's just me. :D

    H9: If you don't trust what you are hearing, then maybe you need to be less invested in a hobby which all the pleasure comes from listening to music.

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