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  1. #1

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    Default Anyone using four fronts in HT?

    I will admit I am new to the advanced HT set up. I have a Marantz SR6001 with four front speaker outs. So I replaced four vintage ADS speakers with four new Monitor 70's. They are set up as fronts with the CS2 as center. Is this ok or am I totally strange for this set up? I have a new polk 505 sub set up with this too. Thanks,D

    Pioneer Elite SC 63
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    I have heard of people doing this, and I must admit I liked the way it looked when I had the TSi 500's setup up front next to my Monitor 70's when I was doing my A/B. I don't know what would be the gain in doing this, but it sure does look cool, lol.

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    Generally speaking, you really only want two front speakers. Having four of them really doesn't have any advantages in my experience, and can cause phasing issues etc. It also tends to create a really smeared soundstage in my experience.

    Are you hooking the second pair of through A/B outputs? If so, by running both pairs at the same time, you're essentially halving the nominal impedance that the amp is seeing, which isn't really giving you any volume gains. That A/B function is really intended more for connecting two different pairs of speakers, and being able to switch back and forth depending on what you're feeling at the time.


    Think of it this way. With two speakers connected to the amp, the amp is putting it's full power into those two speakers. You hook up four of them, and the power is now going to four separate speakers, and each speaker is getting only half of the amps rated output per channel.
    Last edited by comfortablycurt; 03-06-2010 at 12:57 AM.
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    You're ONLY running 4 up front.....tisk, tisk!

    No, seriously...Curt is right!

    cnh

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dabutcher View Post
    I have a Marantz SR6001 with four front speaker outs. So I replaced four vintage ADS speakers with four new Monitor 70's. They are set up as fronts with the CS2 as center.
    Hello Dabutcher,

    I have an SR8001 which is the big brother to yours. Your receiver provides 100 watts x 7 Channels, Front Left/Center/Right, Surround Left/Right, Rear Left/Right. I believe you are only trying to run a 5.1 setup, so the Surround Left/Right need to be installed on each side just behind your listening position. If ever want a full 7.1, the two additional Rear Left/Right speakers would be added to the rear of your listening position.

    Here is a Link to a PDF of the User Guide for the SR6001. Refer to page 17 for clarification.

    Regards,
    Mike
    Last edited by Tower Boss; 03-06-2010 at 02:43 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueFox View Post
    Curt, what experience do you have with this setup? Personally, I have none. However, if the pre/amp is designed for 4 front speakers, and the speakers are identical, then it seems like a reasonable idea. On the other hand, if someone just kludges together 4 speakers for the front then I would expect it to most likely suck.

    My questions are:

    Do you put the speakers directly adjacent to each other, or do you separate them a few inches/feet?

    Are the speakers in-line with each other, or are they slightly angled?

    Does the AVR provide the adjustment capability to 'tune' each speaker for optimum sound?

    In theory, a perfect HT (and stereo) will have speakers completely surrounding the audience. Of course, with today’s technology this is impractical, if not impossible, but that should not stop us from evolving.
    Well, no direct experience with that specific receiver/speaker setup, but I have played around with using four front speakers numerous times in the past.

    I've got an old Fisher Studio Standard integrated/receiver that has A/B outputs. I no longer have them, but I used to have two pairs of vintage Sansui 4-ways with 14" woofers. I played around with using all four front channels several times, in a couple different apartments.

    I tried them in several different configurations. I initially stacked them up...which sounded the worst of any configuration I tried. Due to having essentially a woofer/mid/tweeter/woofer/mid/tweeter driver arrangement when stacked, they really didn't sound good together. The tweeter on the bottom speaker was extremely muffled, the bass from the top speaker was muddy etc...lots of issues in that method.

    I also tried placing them next to each other in several different configurations. At first I put each left/right pair directly next to each other with no toe in, which created a drastic bass "suck out". Basically all of the mid to upper bass was drastically reduced in volume. Having the tweeters so close together also made them very bright, and made the tweeter sound very focused...the highs didn't really seem to spread across the soundstage.

    After that, I tried spreading each left/right pair farther apart from each other. This helped to reduce the bass "suck out", and helped spread the high frequencies out, but there were still lots of issues. It made the sound stage seem really smeared. Things weren't as focused, or pin pointable within the soundstage, due to essentially running one stereo pair within another stereo pair. It made things seem really bloated, and almost seemed as if specific instruments were occupying multiple places within the soundstage. As I said before, you couldn't really pinpoint the location of anything.

    I also played around with different amounts of toe-in, and tried varying the backwall spacing between the two stereo pairs. I found it to sound a bit better with the outside pair a few inches farther forward...but it still didn't sound as good as it did when just running one pair.

    Just to add a note, I also played around with using both my old RTi8's and RTi6's at the same time, hooked up to the same Fisher integrated/receiver. The only method I tried then was stacking them though, as I didn't have a pair of stands for the 6's to space them next to the 8's. FWIW, it sounded terrible with the 6's on top of the 8's.


    This is all just my $.02. Obviously, there are plenty of people on here that have and are currently running 2(4?) channel rigs with two pairs of speakers. If you've got the amp with the capabilities, and have the two pairs of speakers, by all means try it out. What sounds terrible to one person could sound extraordinary to another person.

    The important question is, how does it sound to you? That's the only thing that really matters in this hobby. You can get all of the advice in the world from a message board, but it's ultimately up to your ears to decide what sounds good.:)
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  7. #7

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    I have front right and left output terminals #A and front right and left output terminals #B.I suppose I could turn off #B and test listen to that set up. I really like the look of two on each side of 73" rear projection TV. They are facing straight ahead with only two inches between them and 20" behind them.I am limited with a 13 foot wall to work with wide and 20 foot deepp. I have been thinking about some wall treatments to maybe help with my size limits?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dabutcher View Post
    I have front right and left output terminals #A and front right and left output terminals #B.I suppose I could turn off #B and test listen to that set up. I really like the look of two on each side of 73" rear projection TV. They are facing straight ahead with only two inches between them and 20" behind them.I am limited with a 13 foot wall to work with wide and 20 foot deepp. I have been thinking about some wall treatments to maybe help with my size limits?
    Be careful with that arrangement as with both A and B selected it puts the speakers in parallel thus cutting the impedance by half. That could present a really tough load for your receiver.

    When I read your OP I thought the receiver had four separate speaker outs two for each channel but reading your last post, I see that it is the same as most receivers/amplifiers that provide for A & B, i.e. two sets of speakers not so much for four fronts but for having speakers in two different rooms or a set at the back of the room as well as the front.
    Last edited by hearingimpared; 03-06-2010 at 08:24 AM.

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    I ran R50's and RTi6's up front for a little while. Then I switched to a single pair and the soundstage and imaging improved drastically. Trust curt on this one.

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    Move 2 of the Monitor 70s to surround duty, take out the Optimus surrounds, and BAM!, awesome 5.1 setup. :)

    Solved. Enjoy!
    7.1 - polk RTi10 x 3 (LCR) : FXi3 x 2 : RTi4 x 4 : MFW-15 (RIP): Yamaha Aventage RX-A1000 : Adcom GFA-7500 : PS3 : Squeezebox Touch : DIRECTV : Panasonic PT-AX200U PJ @120"
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    Quote Originally Posted by hearingimpared View Post
    Be careful with that arrangement as with both A and B selected it puts the speakers in parallel thus cutting the impedance by half. That could present a really tough load for your receiver.

    When I read your OP I thought the receiver had four separate speaker outs two for each channel but reading your last post, I see that it is the same as most receivers/amplifiers that provide for A & B, i.e. two sets of speakers not so much for four fronts but for having speakers in two different rooms or a set at the back of the room as well as the front.
    +1 with this, but I have no experience running 4 fronts. That should be insane at reference levels. I would suggest an external power amp.
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    This is why Polk audio ROCKS! By a simpleton like me asking questions. You guys helped me set up a better system and maybe saved me my new Marantz burning up. Thanks again,Darryl

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    I am currently using something like this in my living room - only the second pair is connected to the surround channels. I preffered this for most 5.1 dts and sacd recordings, and I don't have the space to put the surrounds in the room. The mains are toed a bit in and the surrounds are a foot outside the mains and toed out. This gives me a lot of flexability depending on the recording and what listening format - stereo, dolby PLII etc..
    pop

    media room: Lsi25 mains driven by an audiosource amp300, LSi9's driven by another amp300, LsiC drivin by an audiosourcAmp200, Lsi7 rear channels driven by receiver - Yamaha 863, Panamax 5300, epson 6100 w/ 106" elite cinatension2 screen, HPz555 media center, oppo 980, techniques SLbd3 turntable,xbox and ps3,

    living room: VM30 mains driven by a niles 2125, VM20 center and VM10 surrounds, velodyne dsp10, yamaha rxv661, cambridge audio dvd89, panamax5300, philips 42" plasma

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dabutcher View Post
    I have front right and left output terminals #A and front right and left output terminals #B.I suppose I could turn off #B and test listen to that set up. I really like the look of two on each side of 73" rear projection TV. They are facing straight ahead with only two inches between them and 20" behind them.I am limited with a 13 foot wall to work with wide and 20 foot deepp. I have been thinking about some wall treatments to maybe help with my size limits?
    Quote Originally Posted by Sherardp View Post
    +1 with this, but I have no experience running 4 fronts. That should be insane at reference levels. I would suggest an external power amp.
    I fully understand Curt and the other that backs up his points or concerns.


    however, the goal of a good HT set-up is to create the original recording as much as possible and to make you feel part of the play (living it). From personal experience, I feel the more smaller speakers rather than much larger ones will be a lot more efficient to provide you with the movie reality experience. However, proper placement and treathment is now of greater importance (sound reflection etc...). Your sound stage is also the big thing and some form of array arrangement of multiple speakers can produce great results. Hope I am not cutting in for a big debate here but simply trying to show the other side and the potential benefits of multiple speakers.

    If you are to use 4 fronts, I agree with Sherardp, You should use external amps which solves any issues with impedance and power delivered to your speakers.

    Cheers!
    TK
    Last edited by TECHNOKID; 03-07-2010 at 03:38 PM.

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    http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/show...ighlight=mains

    Read it, do not bypass it. This is the same for what you are asking, no exceptions. It is not recommended.
    In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence.

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    Default I would hate to wreak havok on my new AV marantz.Thanks

    I was just going by this speaker wire set up diagram in owners manual. thanks again guys-your the best!Attachment 47298

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dabutcher View Post
    I was just going by this speaker wire set up diagram in owners manual. thanks again guys-your the best!
    Hello as I had mentioned back in post 5, the same page (17) you are showing the speaker connections is also the recommended speaker placement for 5.1 & 7.1 setups. The reason you have both a Front A and Front B is to afford the ability to run both surround speakers and dedicated 2-channel floorstanders. That's why you have an A/B switch on bottom right behind the flip door.

    Regards,
    Mike

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    my amp is a 7.1 channel,i am using it in a 5.1 system,i split the front signals from the pre and am using the 2 spare channels as an extra set of fronts.
    The main fronts are the lsi 15's,and for the other set of fronts i am using the lsi9's.The 9's are placed directly above on a shelf (specially made and positioned)and angled the same and about 1 foot behind the 15's.
    I like the way it sounds,and with the imaging of the lsi line i don't hear any cancellation,in fact listening to them with the subs off i find the 80 htz and above thump very impressive,the soundstage is almost perfectly centered,i close my eyes and listen,and have Faith Hill not ten feet away.When i turn the subs on,WHOA hold on. The 9's were bought for rears,looks like i'm off to get another set.
    Although this is just my opinion,I am a true believer in,if you can think it do it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dabutcher View Post
    I will admit I am new to the advanced HT set up. I have a Marantz SR6001 with four front speaker outs. So I replaced four vintage ADS speakers with four new Monitor 70's. They are set up as fronts with the CS2 as center. Is this ok or am I totally strange for this set up? I have a new polk 505 sub set up with this too. Thanks,D
    So out of curiousity, which ADS speakers do you have. I had a pair of 1290's that i sorely miss.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dabutcher View Post
    I was just going by this speaker wire set up diagram in owners manual. thanks again guys-your the best!Attachment 47298
    That's meant more for using two different pairs of speakers, and switching between them. Running two pairs at a time off of an A/B switch is generally a bad idea. It halves the impedance that the amp is seeing, and causes the amp to work much harder to produce the same volume.

    Also From an "I need more sound" kinda volume stand point, there is basically no advantage to using two pairs of speakers. The radiating surface has to be increased something like ten fold in order to gain an increase in actual SPL.

    I'd guess you'd get better sound with a single pair up front, toed in slightly towards the listening position.
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    ^^^^ one pair up front best and what they said ;)

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    Quote Originally Posted by NotaSuv View Post
    ^^^^ one pair up front best and what they said ;)
    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

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    Quote Originally Posted by comfortablycurt View Post
    Well, no direct experience with that specific receiver/speaker setup, but I have played around with using four front speakers numerous times in the past.

    I've got an old Fisher Studio Standard integrated/receiver that has A/B outputs. I no longer have them, but I used to have two pairs of vintage Sansui 4-ways with 14" woofers. I played around with using all four front channels several times, in a couple different apartments.

    I tried them in several different configurations. I initially stacked them up...which sounded the worst of any configuration I tried. Due to having essentially a woofer/mid/tweeter/woofer/mid/tweeter driver arrangement when stacked, they really didn't sound good together. The tweeter on the bottom speaker was extremely muffled, the bass from the top speaker was muddy etc...lots of issues in that method.

    I also tried placing them next to each other in several different configurations. At first I put each left/right pair directly next to each other with no toe in, which created a drastic bass "suck out". Basically all of the mid to upper bass was drastically reduced in volume. Having the tweeters so close together also made them very bright, and made the tweeter sound very focused...the highs didn't really seem to spread across the soundstage.

    After that, I tried spreading each left/right pair farther apart from each other. This helped to reduce the bass "suck out", and helped spread the high frequencies out, but there were still lots of issues. It made the sound stage seem really smeared. Things weren't as focused, or pin pointable within the soundstage, due to essentially running one stereo pair within another stereo pair. It made things seem really bloated, and almost seemed as if specific instruments were occupying multiple places within the soundstage. As I said before, you couldn't really pinpoint the location of anything.

    I also played around with different amounts of toe-in, and tried varying the backwall spacing between the two stereo pairs. I found it to sound a bit better with the outside pair a few inches farther forward...but it still didn't sound as good as it did when just running one pair.

    Just to add a note, I also played around with using both my old RTi8's and RTi6's at the same time, hooked up to the same Fisher integrated/receiver. The only method I tried then was stacking them though, as I didn't have a pair of stands for the 6's to space them next to the 8's. FWIW, it sounded terrible with the 6's on top of the 8's.


    This is all just my $.02. Obviously, there are plenty of people on here that have and are currently running 2(4?) channel rigs with two pairs of speakers. If you've got the amp with the capabilities, and have the two pairs of speakers, by all means try it out. What sounds terrible to one person could sound extraordinary to another person.

    The important question is, how does it sound to you? That's the only thing that really matters in this hobby. You can get all of the advice in the world from a message board, but it's ultimately up to your ears to decide what sounds good.:)
    All of this sort of sounds like what Polk addressed with their SDA line of speakers by tackling things with integrated L/R speakers. Beyond 2ch work they were initially intended to do, the SDAs make for superb front HT speakers... almost do not need a center. Almost!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hillbilly61 View Post
    Beyond 2ch work they were initially intended to do, the SDAs make for superb front HT speakers... almost do not need a center. Almost!
    Definitely! I'm basically using my 2 channel rig as my HT system now, and the SDA's do a wonderful job of creating a phantom center channel. For that matter, they do a pretty damn good job of creating phantom surround channels too!!;)
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