About speaker wire

Zero · 08-30-2002, 11:32 PM

Yea, the same old same old debate here, but perhaps with a different twist.

I, like all of us here, have had our ears and eyes full of information regarding the effeciency of higher end speaker wire.

My question is this:

Each driver inside the speaker has a wire connected to the circuit board... or somewhere inside of there.. LOL

That being considered, I really do wonder if there is a limit you can reach in sonic difference because the cable you have going from your amp/reciever to the speaker is as good, if not better, then the internal wire.

I mean, what the hell is the use of having a $200 pair of speaker cables if half the signal is lost when making a delivery from the curcuit board to the driver.

Or am I comparing apples/oranges....
Or totally off base?

Someone help

trubluluc · 08-30-2002, 11:43 PM

I think you know the answer hear man, something to do with smoke and mirrors.
I also get a kick out of the Purists that buy high end power cords and plug them into $1.29 outlets wired with 14 gauge wire.
And then expound on the heady bouquet and nutty finish of the music through their new wires and cords.

-Luc

Aaron · 08-30-2002, 11:50 PM

The argument is usually that the length of wire to the driver is so short that it isn't nearly as critical as the long run from the amplifier. Also, the wires to the driver don't carrry the full signal like the speaker wires do since the signal has already gone through the crossover. Higher end speakers use better quality wires internally as well.

All I can say is try it for yourself and see if you hear a difference.

Aaron

Quagmire · 08-30-2002, 11:57 PM

IMHO, I think you're dead on.

I do believe you can degrade the signal by using too slender gage a wire (esp. over distances > @ 100 feet or more), but I don't see how you can "improve the sound" in any way by using lower gauge (thick) shielded cable. The differences between signals carried across normal speaker wire & something like monster cable would be so small that it'd take lab instruments to actually see the difference.

For average length speaker wire runs 16 - 18 gauge wire will work quite well, & you'll never hear the difference between it & vastly more expensive monster cable.

Aaron · 08-31-2002, 12:00 AM

Blah, blah, blah. Go listen for yourself and report back.

Aaron

nascarmann · 08-31-2002, 12:08 AM

I think we should use 6 awg 5,000 strand wire with .66 shielding?

trubluluc · 08-31-2002, 12:14 AM

...tried using automobile jumper cables?

Quagmire · 08-31-2002, 12:29 AM

I take it you disagree, which leads me to wonder how much you spent on your speaker cables.

As for me, I just went down to Lowes & spent $40 on a 250 ft roll of 16 gauge speaker wire.

phuz · 08-31-2002, 12:59 AM

I'm still a bit new to all of this and I've always been skeptical of the speaker wire hype. If you look through some of my posts you'll even see me joking about how good my walmart speaker wire is the best. I never at all thought that it could make a difference. I mean, copper is copper right?

I've changed my mind.

After hearing some other systems I realized that I was ready to start a new upgrade path. With the limited budge I have at the moment.. I figure why not go ahead and get some decent cable that is bi-wire capable so I'm ready for those LSi's when I get em.

Steve@3dai recommended some wire from a nice local hi-fi shop, and after listening to his system I wasn't really in a position to argue. So I dropped about $70 on 30 ft. (2x12ft. mains and 1x6ft. center) of JPW Audiolink Bi-Wire 79 cable. I hooked it up not expecting much, and was delightfully suprised. The difference wasn't really night and day, but it made a good bit of difference and has made me a bit happier with my current setup.

Perceptual, maybe... but my opinion has changed. Good cables make sense. $3000 cables? Hell no. I think most of us around here understand that you can get awesome sound within any budget.. and that once you pass a certain point/price range in anything wether it be speakers or wire - that you end up paying for a name or something else other than the real deal.

Sure that radio shack wire is a great deal, and it's just fine for those KLH speakers or that Sony HTIB. But if you've got the ear for LSi's or hi-fi in general... some decent cable makes a difference.

/rant - time for bed.

phuz · 08-31-2002, 01:05 AM

D'oh. In that rant I completely forgot that the actual topic at hand was the wire inside the speaks.

I don't think it would make much of a difference. I'm sure that most mfgs use good wire that matches well with the rest of the components. Even if they didn't, I don't think that six inches of wire is going to make much of a difference if any at all... but if it makes you feel better go for it.

Zero · 08-31-2002, 02:11 AM

I suppose Im having a difficult time grasping the idea of a "no bars held, no limitation" type deal with speaker wire.

I mean, logically....somewhere along the lines your cable will succeed what is in the speaker and you will be loosing signal, vice gaining it. A natural limitation of the speaker itself.

Im not debating if speaker cable sounds better... but simply focusing on the wire inside the speaker box itself.

Aaron · 08-31-2002, 11:07 AM

Quote:

I take it you disagree, which leads me to wonder how much you spent on your speaker cables.

I was very skeptical of speaker wire and interconnects. I started out with an entry level pair of MIT Terminator 6 interconnects for my sub, because I needed a 10' run and also because I had heard good things about them. I paid $60 for the pair (full retail), which isn't too bad for 10' of quality interconnect. I was still very skeptical about spending $60 on a pair of interconnects, though. I plugged them into my sub, replacing the entry level Monster interconnect, and was totally blown away by the improvement. Night and day. The bass of the sub tightened up like you wouldn't believe. The bass also gained more authority and power. After that experience I was hooked. I went out and bought some speaker wire and interconnects for my other components. Just remember to buy cables/interconnects on the same level as your gear.

Aaron

nascarmann · 08-31-2002, 01:50 PM

Geeeezzzzzzz.......

RuSsMaN · 08-31-2002, 02:58 PM

'on the same level'

Whats your formula, 15% of your speaker cost, 10% of the rig cost.....?

Zero · 08-31-2002, 03:46 PM

heh Mine is simple. Whatever sounds best at the cheapest price.

08-31-2002, 04:04 PM

Sort of a hijack here, but based on my current experience, I say don't forget decent stands or shelving. Altho the spkrs are on top & I am using rubber feet, the vibrations passing from the spkrs to the (cheap-ass) shelving below turn it into a reverb chamber, muddying up the sound. Looks like a stand-search is on my to-do list.

Aaron · 08-31-2002, 05:03 PM

Quote:

'on the same level'

Whats your formula, 15% of your speaker cost, 10% of the rig cost.....?

I don't really have one. I can't say I've had enough experience mating different cables to different equipment to be able to give a blanket formula. Really, I doubt that there is any one formula that would work reliably. Do you have one that you think works? I think the bottom line is how much performance you get for a given amount of moneny. If someone can't hear the difference between a $50 interconnect and a $150 interconnect, or they feel that it doesn't perform $100 better, then there's no point in getting it. Basically just exercise common sense.

Aaron

burdette · 09-03-2002, 12:56 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Aaron

If someone can't hear the difference between a $50 interconnect and a $150 interconnect, or they feel that it doesn't perform $100 better, then there's no point in getting it. Basically just exercise common sense.

Can't you say the same thing about a $20 interconnect and either the $50 or $150 ones? Or about esoteric speaker wire vs. plain old decent 16 gauge zip? Or between a $100 CD/DVD player and a $1000 player?

I honestly believe there is a fair amount of "more expensive MUST be better" in audio/video. But as several guys have said, you have to wonder at what point more expense makes sense even if you *can* measure a difference. I mean.. how many guys can hear the difference between 0.001% THD vs. 0.01%? The one thing I do buy is that there are significant differences in amplifiers, such as current capacity under low impedence, that are important and can make a significant difference.

Ahh well... this could go on and on. Interesting to talk about... sort of strikes me as the "abortion issue" of audio politics.... I yam what I yam and dats all dat I yam...

HBombToo · 09-03-2002, 10:53 PM

I like the jumper cable idea myself.... Think when I get back I'm running up to Napa.

Sometimes I have to ask... My God, How did I get here?

RBagbanly · 09-07-2002, 11:09 PM

Hi there,

I've got couple of RTi28's and CSi30 hooked up as surrounds and surround back with 36-40 feet gauge 16 wire.

Is it enough, or I better get 12 gauge wire?

As for front RTi70's and CSi30 I decided to go with 12 gauge wire. Right now their are hooked with 6 feet 16 gauge wire.

RB

HBombToo · 09-08-2002, 02:40 PM

RBagbanly, how does your system sound?

40Ft of 16G may be a little lossy. Move into the 14G and let us know what you think. I am not an advocate of high end wire but heavier guage wire @ the Radio Shack can get you there for a few coins.

RBagbanly · 09-14-2002, 12:44 AM

Well, I can't call myself an audiophile, but I like what I hear.
I didn't try Paradigm Monitor series or Mission, just Bose, JBL and Cervin Vega. And Polks were the best in highs and mids. As for lows - there is PSW350 (well, I didn't wait for PSW303, but I hope there is some kind of trade in for subs, eh?

)

Well, FX's as surrounds would be good, but room is quite small, so I'll be in the "blind" zone of FX speakers. And also I have 6.1 setup so, it's "mixing" sounds enough.

Basically, Polks are giving sound with minimal distortion, just what I need. But I don't think it is ultra super duper speakers. Just an honest system for a buck.

Technically speaking, there is not a big difference between gauge 16 and gauge 14 wires. Though difference between 16 and 12 is quite substantial. But I'm not sure, that my ears can "catch" it.

When I'll setup entertainment room in basement - I'll surely go for 12 gauge wire all around.

RB

Zero · 09-14-2002, 01:13 PM

Let me throw in my experience.

As far as wires go, my system is as mis-matched as possible.
I have Monster Cable Reference 2 hooking up to the source, and the amp. A decent cable.

I then have one unknown brand name, 18 gauge wire *maybe even 24* hooked up to the left speaker, and a 16 gauge Monster Cable XP hooked up to the right speaker. Guess what? No difference whatsoever.

I once had lowe's 12 gauge hooked up to both, I noticed NO difference at all. In fact, it almost sounded worst to me. Wasnt quite sure.

HBombToo · 09-18-2002, 10:34 PM

Here is an interesting page on Wire. Enjoy!

http://www.sundial.net/~rogerr/wire.htm#gordongow

nascarmann · 09-18-2002, 11:04 PM

I here ya HBomb....but what the hell does Gordon Gow know....

HBombToo · 09-18-2002, 11:06 PM

My question is who is Gordan? but I agree with what he is saying......

nascarmann · 09-18-2002, 11:11 PM

He is the big cheese at McIntosh......

mantis · 09-18-2002, 11:24 PM

Wire is wire..........just forget all the Monster,Straight,bettercables,Nortist,Transparent, Mit,Kimbercable,Etc.

If you can't hear any difference why even bother spending all that money.It doesn't make any sence to me?Home Depot and Radio shack make cheap wire, use it,why not its cheap and your system will not sound any worse nor better.Save that money for something else.

I'll just have to live with Transparent........that I can hear the difference.But If I knew before hand that it wasn't going to make any sonic difference?????Well then I wouldn't know any better.

F1nut · 09-19-2002, 01:19 AM

Put me down for the group that knows better cables make a difference......I've heard it with my own ears.

HBombToo · 09-19-2002, 12:36 PM

I'm just trying to apply some numbers to my research on a very subjective topic. No insult to any1 intended but from my standpoint I don't have the ear or the talent of words to effectively express such a subjective topic; therefore, I have focused on specifications and mathimatics.

08-30-2002, 11:32 PM	#1
Zero Stronzo Member Sales Rating: (4) Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Over Yonder Posts: 7,390	About speaker wire Yea, the same old same old debate here, but perhaps with a different twist. I, like all of us here, have had our ears and eyes full of information regarding the effeciency of higher end speaker wire. My question is this: Each driver inside the speaker has a wire connected to the circuit board... or somewhere inside of there.. LOL That being considered, I really do wonder if there is a limit you can reach in sonic difference because the cable you have going from your amp/reciever to the speaker is as good, if not better, then the internal wire. I mean, what the hell is the use of having a $200 pair of speaker cables if half the signal is lost when making a delivery from the curcuit board to the driver. Or am I comparing apples/oranges.... Or totally off base? Someone help

08-30-2002, 11:43 PM	#2
trubluluc Polkologist Member Sales Rating: (6) Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Bay area, California Posts: 2,053	and BINGO was his name o I think you know the answer hear man, something to do with smoke and mirrors. I also get a kick out of the Purists that buy high end power cords and plug them into $1.29 outlets wired with 14 gauge wire. And then expound on the heady bouquet and nutty finish of the music through their new wires and cords. -Luc __________________ "I'm sure it's better than it sounds." Mark Twains' response, when asked what he thought of Wagners music.

08-30-2002, 11:57 PM	#4
Quagmire Polkie Member Sales Rating: (0) Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Florida Posts: 9	IMHO, I think you're dead on. I do believe you can degrade the signal by using too slender gage a wire (esp. over distances > @ 100 feet or more), but I don't see how you can "improve the sound" in any way by using lower gauge (thick) shielded cable. The differences between signals carried across normal speaker wire & something like monster cable would be so small that it'd take lab instruments to actually see the difference. For average length speaker wire runs 16 - 18 gauge wire will work quite well, & you'll never hear the difference between it & vastly more expensive monster cable. Last edited by Quagmire; 08-31-2002 at 12:22 AM..

08-31-2002, 12:00 AM	#5
Aaron Polkhead Member Sales Rating: (0) Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Harrisburg, PA Posts: 1,847	Quagmire Blah, blah, blah. Go listen for yourself and report back. Aaron

08-31-2002, 12:08 AM	#6
nascarmann Polkhead Member Sales Rating: (0) Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Tennessee Posts: 1,465	I think we should use 6 awg 5,000 strand wire with .66 shielding? __________________ Oh, the bottle has been to me, my closes friend, my worse enemy!

08-30-2002, 11:50 PM	#3
Aaron Polkhead Member Sales Rating: (0) Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Harrisburg, PA Posts: 1,847	The argument is usually that the length of wire to the driver is so short that it isn't nearly as critical as the long run from the amplifier. Also, the wires to the driver don't carrry the full signal like the speaker wires do since the signal has already gone through the crossover. Higher end speakers use better quality wires internally as well. All I can say is try it for yourself and see if you hear a difference. Aaron

08-31-2002, 12:14 AM	#7
trubluluc Polkologist Member Sales Rating: (6) Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Bay area, California Posts: 2,053	has anyone... ...tried using automobile jumper cables?

08-31-2002, 12:29 AM	#8
Quagmire Polkie Member Sales Rating: (0) Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Florida Posts: 9	Re: Quagmire I take it you disagree, which leads me to wonder how much you spent on your speaker cables. As for me, I just went down to Lowes & spent $40 on a 250 ft roll of 16 gauge speaker wire.

08-31-2002, 12:59 AM	#9
phuz Polkologist Member Sales Rating: (4) Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Texas - Moo Posts: 2,251	I'm still a bit new to all of this and I've always been skeptical of the speaker wire hype. If you look through some of my posts you'll even see me joking about how good my walmart speaker wire is the best. I never at all thought that it could make a difference. I mean, copper is copper right? I've changed my mind. After hearing some other systems I realized that I was ready to start a new upgrade path. With the limited budge I have at the moment.. I figure why not go ahead and get some decent cable that is bi-wire capable so I'm ready for those LSi's when I get em. Steve@3dai recommended some wire from a nice local hi-fi shop, and after listening to his system I wasn't really in a position to argue. So I dropped about $70 on 30 ft. (2x12ft. mains and 1x6ft. center) of JPW Audiolink Bi-Wire 79 cable. I hooked it up not expecting much, and was delightfully suprised. The difference wasn't really night and day, but it made a good bit of difference and has made me a bit happier with my current setup. Perceptual, maybe... but my opinion has changed. Good cables make sense. $3000 cables? Hell no. I think most of us around here understand that you can get awesome sound within any budget.. and that once you pass a certain point/price range in anything wether it be speakers or wire - that you end up paying for a name or something else other than the real deal. Sure that radio shack wire is a great deal, and it's just fine for those KLH speakers or that Sony HTIB. But if you've got the ear for LSi's or hi-fi in general... some decent cable makes a difference. /rant - time for bed.

08-31-2002, 01:05 AM	#10
phuz Polkologist Member Sales Rating: (4) Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Texas - Moo Posts: 2,251	D'oh. In that rant I completely forgot that the actual topic at hand was the wire inside the speaks. I don't think it would make much of a difference. I'm sure that most mfgs use good wire that matches well with the rest of the components. Even if they didn't, I don't think that six inches of wire is going to make much of a difference if any at all... but if it makes you feel better go for it.

08-31-2002, 02:11 AM	#11
Zero Stronzo Member Sales Rating: (4) Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Over Yonder Posts: 7,390	I suppose Im having a difficult time grasping the idea of a "no bars held, no limitation" type deal with speaker wire. I mean, logically....somewhere along the lines your cable will succeed what is in the speaker and you will be loosing signal, vice gaining it. A natural limitation of the speaker itself. Im not debating if speaker cable sounds better... but simply focusing on the wire inside the speaker box itself.

08-31-2002, 01:50 PM	#13
nascarmann Polkhead Member Sales Rating: (0) Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Tennessee Posts: 1,465	Geeeezzzzzzz.......

08-31-2002, 02:58 PM	#14
RuSsMaN Hardcore Member Sales Rating: (27) Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: North Texas Posts: 16,018	'on the same level' Whats your formula, 15% of your speaker cost, 10% of the rig cost.....? __________________ If you're gonna be dumb, you gotta be tough - when you get knocked down, you gotta get back up - Roger Alan Wade

08-31-2002, 03:46 PM	#15
Zero Stronzo Member Sales Rating: (4) Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Over Yonder Posts: 7,390	heh Mine is simple. Whatever sounds best at the cheapest price.

08-31-2002, 04:04 PM	#16
meestercleef Guest Posts: n/a	Sort of a hijack here, but based on my current experience, I say don't forget decent stands or shelving. Altho the spkrs are on top & I am using rubber feet, the vibrations passing from the spkrs to the (cheap-ass) shelving below turn it into a reverb chamber, muddying up the sound. Looks like a stand-search is on my to-do list.

09-03-2002, 10:53 PM	#19
HBombToo Polk Master Member Sales Rating: (1) Join Date: May 2002 Location: Funny Farm"no doubt there" Posts: 5,321	I like the jumper cable idea myself.... Think when I get back I'm running up to Napa. Sometimes I have to ask... My God, How did I get here? __________________ *WAREMTAE*

09-07-2002, 11:09 PM	#20
RBagbanly Polkie Member Sales Rating: (0) Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Ontario Posts: 4	Hi there, I've got couple of RTi28's and CSi30 hooked up as surrounds and surround back with 36-40 feet gauge 16 wire. Is it enough, or I better get 12 gauge wire? As for front RTi70's and CSi30 I decided to go with 12 gauge wire. Right now their are hooked with 6 feet 16 gauge wire. RB

09-08-2002, 02:40 PM	#21
HBombToo Polk Master Member Sales Rating: (1) Join Date: May 2002 Location: Funny Farm"no doubt there" Posts: 5,321	RBagbanly, how does your system sound? 40Ft of 16G may be a little lossy. Move into the 14G and let us know what you think. I am not an advocate of high end wire but heavier guage wire @ the Radio Shack can get you there for a few coins.

09-14-2002, 12:44 AM	#22
RBagbanly Polkie Member Sales Rating: (0) Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Ontario Posts: 4	Well, I can't call myself an audiophile, but I like what I hear. I didn't try Paradigm Monitor series or Mission, just Bose, JBL and Cervin Vega. And Polks were the best in highs and mids. As for lows - there is PSW350 (well, I didn't wait for PSW303, but I hope there is some kind of trade in for subs, eh? ) Well, FX's as surrounds would be good, but room is quite small, so I'll be in the "blind" zone of FX speakers. And also I have 6.1 setup so, it's "mixing" sounds enough. Basically, Polks are giving sound with minimal distortion, just what I need. But I don't think it is ultra super duper speakers. Just an honest system for a buck. Technically speaking, there is not a big difference between gauge 16 and gauge 14 wires. Though difference between 16 and 12 is quite substantial. But I'm not sure, that my ears can "catch" it. When I'll setup entertainment room in basement - I'll surely go for 12 gauge wire all around. RB

09-14-2002, 01:13 PM	#23
Zero Stronzo Member Sales Rating: (4) Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Over Yonder Posts: 7,390	Let me throw in my experience. As far as wires go, my system is as mis-matched as possible. I have Monster Cable Reference 2 hooking up to the source, and the amp. A decent cable. I then have one unknown brand name, 18 gauge wire maybe even 24 hooked up to the left speaker, and a 16 gauge Monster Cable XP hooked up to the right speaker. Guess what? No difference whatsoever. I once had lowe's 12 gauge hooked up to both, I noticed NO difference at all. In fact, it almost sounded worst to me. Wasnt quite sure.

09-18-2002, 10:34 PM	#24
HBombToo Polk Master Member Sales Rating: (1) Join Date: May 2002 Location: Funny Farm"no doubt there" Posts: 5,321	Here is an interesting page on Wire. Enjoy! http://www.sundial.net/~rogerr/wire.htm#gordongow

09-18-2002, 11:04 PM	#25
nascarmann Polkhead Member Sales Rating: (0) Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Tennessee Posts: 1,465	I here ya HBomb....but what the hell does Gordon Gow know....

09-18-2002, 11:06 PM	#26
HBombToo Polk Master Member Sales Rating: (1) Join Date: May 2002 Location: Funny Farm"no doubt there" Posts: 5,321	My question is who is Gordan? but I agree with what he is saying......

09-18-2002, 11:11 PM	#27
nascarmann Polkhead Member Sales Rating: (0) Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Tennessee Posts: 1,465	He is the big cheese at McIntosh......

09-18-2002, 11:24 PM	#28
mantis Polk Guru Member Sales Rating: (10) Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Pa Posts: 9,552	Wire is wire..........just forget all the Monster,Straight,bettercables,Nortist,Transparent, Mit,Kimbercable,Etc. If you can't hear any difference why even bother spending all that money.It doesn't make any sence to me?Home Depot and Radio shack make cheap wire, use it,why not its cheap and your system will not sound any worse nor better.Save that money for something else. I'll just have to live with Transparent........that I can hear the difference.But If I knew before hand that it wasn't going to make any sonic difference?????Well then I wouldn't know any better. __________________ Dan My personal quest is to save to world of bad audio, one thread at a time.

09-19-2002, 01:19 AM	#29
F1nut Polk Guru Member Sales Rating: (10) Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: The Mars Hotel Posts: 19,102	Put me down for the group that knows better cables make a difference......I've heard it with my own ears. __________________ 'Political Correctness'.........defined "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end." President of Club Polk

09-19-2002, 12:36 PM	#30
HBombToo Polk Master Member Sales Rating: (1) Join Date: May 2002 Location: Funny Farm"no doubt there" Posts: 5,321	I'm just trying to apply some numbers to my research on a very subjective topic. No insult to any1 intended but from my standpoint I don't have the ear or the talent of words to effectively express such a subjective topic; therefore, I have focused on specifications and mathimatics.

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