Balanced (XLR) vs. Regular RCA

[smglbrth]

Does anyone have a preference, opinion, or real world experience with balanced inputs vs. the standard RCA inputs?

I was just wondering exactly what difference there was, besides the obvious physical appearance, and if it would be worth it to try the balanced input option.

Any opinions would be greatly appreciated!

Thanks!

[smglbrth]

By the way, as a side note, does anyone know what the black dot on the envelope means when viewing subject lines in the different forums?

I have a feeling it's something like being "black-balled" and that usually isn't good news, but...........

[madmax]

Balanced inputs are like a twisted pair going to an op-amp if you know what that means. There is a plus and a minus rather than a plus and a ground. The idea is that any noise that gets induced on the positive side also gets induced on the negative side so they cancel out leaving only the real signal. On a normal rca type connection anything that gets induced on the plus side gets amplified. (noise) No opinion about it really.
madmax

[smglbrth]

Madmax,

Are balanced inputs worth saving for? I have the chance of going either way and was just wondering if it was worth it.

Thanks for your explanation!

[DarqueKnight]

Balanced outputs were developed for use in professional studios where long cable lengths and lots equipment (which = lots of wires) provided lots of opportunities for electromagnetic interference (hum, noise) to develop.

For consumer use, the cable lengths are typically so short (1 or 2 meters) that interference is not a problem. There is usually no advantage to using balanced cables in a home environment unless you are running long lengths of cable.

Some people say that they can hear a difference between short lengths of balanced vs. non-balanced cable. Try both and see if you hear a difference.

[phuz]

I think the black dot is either a thread that you started, or have posted on.

[smglbrth]

Phuz - thanks for the insight on the dot, Polk had me worried there for a second. By the way, nice system, I especially like the line conditioner! I have been looking into conditioners/surge protectors lately and I'll definitely have to look up Panamax!

Raife1 - Thanks for the insight on the balanced inputs. I have a choice between two preamps, 2 channel of course, one has balanced outputs and one doesn't. Other than that, and a couple of doo-dads I probably won't use anyway, the price difference is pretty significant. I tend to be a perfectionist with audio but only if the price is justified. I bought a new amp this weekend but I'll have to wait to give a full report on it soon, as I hear how it performs anyway. By the way, nice system(s), I especially liked all those Adcom amps. Dang, you must run a 60 amp fuse panel just for your set-ups!!

Thanks guys!

[madmax]

Personally, I look for the best sound possible and have never considered balanced inputs. There are a few reasons. As stated above, you really need a problem setup for it to make a difference, all components in the string must use them and cables are a bitch. I would never opt for them if the price difference is significant. Just my opinion though. If you can give a specific reason why they would be advantagous to you then I say go for it, otherwise go with what everyone else who spends less than $50K on their system goes with.
madmax

[smglbrth]

Madmax - I'm glad most people here have good, decent, common sense when it comes to audio. I'm not here much, except when I'm curious about something or have a free minute, which isn't very often, but I do like to read different experiences with different equipment. I believe most all on these forums have, at least, a decent knowledge of audio and appreciate good sound, no matter what it comes from. I have a small saying I like to tell people when they ask me if I know something about audio or firearms, my two expensive hobbies. I always say "What I don't know is alot". Since most of the time someone knows better or more than I do. It's a safe place to stay and you learn more!

As for the balanced inputs I think I'll go with RCA's. Better on the wallet, that's for sure.

Common sense rules!!

[jrausch]

smglbrth,

I am using balanced cables throughout my 2/ch rig and there is a significant difference between the two cable types. The most noticeable difference is between the Pre-amp and amp. What the balanced cables do is cut the noise floor/signal by around 3db which is no problem when you can just increase the output of the pre-amp. What it will do for your music is it sharply defines the focus and tightens the sound stage. Vocals sharpen up considerably. I can run both balanced and unbalanced at the same time to do a real time A/B comparison. If I switch back to the RCA's the soundstage widens up a bit, but the crisp detail is gone. This is a taste preference, but I prefer the crisp realism over the slightly expanded and smeared soundstage. If you do go with the balanced please be sure and give them at least 40 hours of burn in time as they will sound a bit muffled to begin with.

The only caveat would be the price starting around $100 per 1meter. Is it worth the extra cash? I would not hesitate to buy them again.
Here is my setup:

Amp: Adcom 5802 (balanced)
Pre-amp: Parasound P/LD 2000 (balanced)
DAC: Parasound Ultra 2000 (balanced)
CD: Toshiba 6200 (Coax)
Speakers: Polk Lsi 15’s
Cables: Monster Coax and Balanced Z series

This by far is the best 2/ch rig I have ever heard for the money.
Total system price was $3100.

[DarqueKnight]

Originally posted by jrausch
I am using balanced cables throughout my 2/ch rig and there is a significant difference between the two cable types. The most noticeable difference is between the Pre-amp and amp. What the balanced cables do is cut the noise floor/signal by around 3db which is no problem when you can just increase the output of the pre-amp. What it will do for your music is it sharply defines the focus and tightens the sound stage. Vocals sharpen up considerably.

jrausch,

This has been my experience exactly, but not until in moved into my current, audiophile-friendly house with dedicated 20 amp circuits for my sound systems. I bought an Adcom GFP-750 preamp and Adcom GFA-5802 power amp in 2001. I decided to try some balanced interconnects (Monster Z200i) since both the amp and preamp had balanced connections. I heard no differance between the either the Monster Z100i RCA interconnect or the Monster Z200i XLR interconnect. I decided to hold on the XLR cables in case I needed them one day.

At the end of 2001, I sold my house and moved into a rental house for nine months while I was having a new house built. I tried the XLR cables at the rental house and again, no differance.

After moving into my new audiophile-friendly house in 2002, I decided to try the XLR cables again. I could hear an immediate differance! More clarity, more bass, more detail, more of everything that's good. Even before I tried the XLR cables, I was hearing more detail in my music due to the much better wiring configuration in the new house.

Similar to your experience, I noticed that the XLR cables opened up more after a burnin of 40-50 hours. I noticed this when I started hearing more detail in familiar recordings.

I was hesitant to relate my good experiences with XLR cables because, for me, the benefits were directly related to having a favorable housing environment. That's why I urged smglbrth to (if possible) try both types of cables before making a decision.

[madmax]

Originally posted by madmax001
you really need a problem setup for it to make a difference
madmax

I'm thinking I may have made a mistake with this statement given jrausch's hands on experience and my lack of hands on. That is very interesting with the soundstage vs detail. I wonder if it is the cables, circuit or method which causes the difference?
madmax

[HBombToo]

Originally posted by madmax001


I'm thinking I may have made a mistake with this statement given jrausch's hands on experience and my lack of hands on. That is very interesting with the soundstage vs detail. I wonder if it is the cables, circuit or method which causes the difference?
madmax

In no way did I disagree with you max... I think you are very correct. I am running xlr between my Cal Labs and Audio Research DAC and there is a noticeable difference in image quality but the question is how much? "I don't think much....". In my case I believe its the difference between optical and XLR where the XLR has less jitter. From an analog standpoint I have NO experience but from the above statements my assumption is less phase changes between the L/R across the preamp/amp which locks in the front stage.

HBomb

[wyocoyote]

Well it looks like a couple of you folks found some real benefits to xlr. I cant tell the difference in the buzz from a bee and that last tequila, but thought I'd let you know: since xlr cables are ubiquitous in recording/performance get thee to a music store to buy those cables. They sure arent 100/meter there. in fact you can get long lengths of monster brand for like 50 bucks.

[surfntomm]

i got a pair of xlr cables for 20 bucks on ebay, although im sure they are not monster cables or blue jeans they do the job and have yet to have any problem in build or sound quality.

[C3 Audio]

I have been doing a lot of reading on the forum since I joined in January 2007and have had a few questions, all of which are usually answered through using the search feature. Well, once again, I was wondering the difference between balanced and unbalanced inputs. This thread answered my question and saved other members a bunch of typing covering the same topics again. Thanks for your input.
C3 Audio

[venomclan]

I find that if nothing else is heard sound wise, the balanced cables always help in my system with ground loops. Noise floor is much lower with balanced cables in my system also. if you have a nice sounding system without balanced connections, I do not think it is worth the $ to change your equipment.

But if you have the connections already, by all means try balanced. Mileage may vary.
Venom

[candyliquor35m]

I have a tube amp in which when I used the balanced inputs, I don't have to mess with the gain and thus I get more volume from the amp and I don't have to second guess what the gain should be set to. I didn't notice any difference in the sound other than the volume being produced by the amp. That's the only time I've had a notion to use XLR and will continue to use them on the amp.

[reeltrouble1]

I experienced the drop in noise floor previously talked about in this thread when I went to balanced cable, I have no special house wiring, lines and so on. Based upon my experience I will use balanced XLR whenever I can.

RT1

[Hawkeye]

I use xlr on my 2 channel system. I bought 1 meter Mogami with gold tips from the guitar center for about $29.00 each. I needed a total of 6. I also had a set made with parts from parts express for about $50.00. I could not tell the two apart. To me they were both very clear, uncolored and frankly, brutally revealing on some cd's due to the mix (that's another thread).

I also can AB on my rig so I tried some Audioquest vipers and corals. There is a definate change in stage width and depth on my rig and ears.

I come from the camp that doesn't like to hear the wires so I left the Mogami's in and enjoy the tunes.

[rskarvan]

Balanced is DEFINITELY the way to go.
Its more than just the XLR cable though.
The components need to have fully balanced circuitry. This means nearly twice as many board-level components.

THE CIRCUITS ARE MUCH MORE COMPLEX IN A BALANCED CONFIGURATION.

Some components may use XLR cables but are not fully-balanced on the inside. So, YMMV when it comes to balanced vs. not.

I hear a difference. The balanced sound is MUCH more crisp and detailed than the coax.

- Ron

[pblanc]

I happened to be digging around The Guitar Store the other day and noted that they had good prices on fairly long lengths of XLR interconnects. These are commonly used for PA systems for live music. You might check them out if you want to go the XLR route. I don't know how the quality compares, but they seemed to be significantly less expensive than what I've seen listed on audiophile sites for XLR interconnects.

[beardog03]

Originally Posted by rskarvan

Balanced is DEFINITELY the way to go.
Its more than just the XLR cable though.
The components need to have fully balanced circuitry. This means nearly twice as many board-level components.

THE CIRCUITS ARE MUCH MORE COMPLEX IN A BALANCED CONFIGURATION.

Some components may use XLR cables but are not fully-balanced on the inside. So, YMMV when it comes to balanced vs. not.

I hear a difference. The balanced sound is MUCH more crisp and detailed than the coax.

- Ron

This is very true from what I have learned since I asked the same question.....over and over ...

If your amp or pre or CDP , or whatever is not a fully balanced piece, then you will not be using a fully balanced circuit, and YMMV...

a fully balanced piece is going to be crisper etc.,but a piece that offers both RCa/XLR will most likely sound the same either way you go...

at least thats what I have been told on many occasions...
I just don`t have the scratch to do an A/B test yet, as MIT`s are a little costly

[SCompRacer]

My phono pre amp has balanced inputs and outputs. The unbalanced outputs are rated at a 37dB gain while the balanced outputs are rated at 47dB. Would that be the designer taking advantage of a quieter noise floor with increased gain?

Currently I don't have a pre amp with balanced inputs/outputs to try it out.

[TN_Polk_Lover]

Originally Posted by rskarvan

Balanced is DEFINITELY the way to go.
Its more than just the XLR cable though.
The components need to have fully balanced circuitry. This means nearly twice as many board-level components.

THE CIRCUITS ARE MUCH MORE COMPLEX IN A BALANCED CONFIGURATION.

Some components may use XLR cables but are not fully-balanced on the inside. So, YMMV when it comes to balanced vs. not.

I hear a difference. The balanced sound is MUCH more crisp and detailed than the coax.

- Ron

I'm speaking here purely on what I've read, not on personal experience. rskarvan is correct. Some components have an instrinsically balanced design in the output (or input) stage(s), some don't. If I understand correctly, even the unbalanced designs can still benefit from the XLR cables, the noise cancellation concept still applies, but the designs that are truly balanced designs inside will benefit the most. Maybe one day, I'll save up enough for some better gear that has balanced inputs and outputs and I can listen for myself.

Robert

[janmike]

I have tried both balanced and unbalanced cables on my Proceed gear and the balanced do sound better. Much more detailed.

[reeltrouble1]

Be careful of microphone cables, they are intended for the human voice frequencies. In this case check the spec.

RT1