Yet again...a bi-wire question.

gacole2000 · 04-25-2003, 07:05 PM

I used IXOS Gamma 13 to bi-wire my CS400. However, most info I have seen uses a 13/15 set up. My question is: is it imperative to have different gages of wire for HF & LF in a bi-wire set up? Any input is appreciated.

Thanks- Greg

Zero · 04-25-2003, 07:25 PM

Gacole,

Let me begin by congradulating you on making the decision to use Ixos. I have yet to find any cable/wire to exhibit a better value.

While owning and evaluating the performance of the Ixos super-gamma bi-wire on a pair of LSi-9's, I switched between the high-pass and low-pass band.

From the moment of that temporary experiment to my memory of it today, I have yet to conclude that a sonic difference indeed took place.

The conducted test was offset from the beginning. I already had the pre-concieved notion that there would be a difference between the 13 gauge, and the 15 gauge terminations. When I switched them I felt there was indeed a difference, a loss in clarity if you will. However, the differences were subtle enough to leave me without conclusion.

Going on my past experiences alone, I would not claim that it would be an imperative, giving the wire and the speaker we are dealing with. Since my test was inconclusive, perhaps you could conduct one yourself. The wire is cheap enough to take a little risk with....

gacole2000 · 04-25-2003, 07:32 PM

I too am sold on IXOS. I use all their Gold interconects and I run 13 on front stage and 15 on 6.1 surrounds. Not to mention it is a GREAT value (it looks cool too)! I have the extra wire to experiment with, I was just wondering if the different gage effected which freq. went where, and by using the same gage on both????

thanks for the input- Greg

Zero · 04-25-2003, 07:51 PM

Gacole,

The idea behind the different gauges, if I remember correctly, is simply to provide the different bands with a certain amount of current. I have read that bass generally benefits from greater gauge wire, where as the high bands require less "heavy stuff".

Unless the amp caters specifically to bi-wire connections, I would not see how the frequencies could be specified simply through the wire.

gacole2000 · 04-25-2003, 08:06 PM

that's what I was thinking. Also, I seem to remeber a post here a while back asserting that in actuality, the HF should get the thicker wire. Did you see that?

Greg

Zero · 04-25-2003, 08:19 PM

Gacole,

I remember reading that here as well. Though due to a lack of knowledge and a short-term memory, I failed to remember the reasoning behind the idea. I am sure someone here will enlighten both of us once more.

gacole2000 · 04-25-2003, 08:24 PM

I as well, but I do remember it was a heated (as usual) debate and was supported with lots of technical mumbo jumbo-for what that's worth.

:-) Greg

HBombToo · 04-25-2003, 09:16 PM

Its all about skin effect or the way the signal penetrates into the cable. Electron mobility resides on the surface of the material and I think its a bunch of bunk for audio or frequencies in the audio band but micro-wave is a different story. This is my engineering judgement and I'm sure there is an engineer out there that would disagree but I really don't give a shiite... minimize lossed and ensure good electrical connections and you'll be a happy camper.

HBomb

mantis · 04-26-2003, 08:24 AM

HBombToo,
why are the gloves out?relax man.Your opnion is as much value as the next guys.....

gacole2000,
Ixos has reasons for constructing there bi wire cables the way they do.Like KimberKable,they feel using different guages yield best performance for the job intended.

If you really want to know why,call Ixos and ask.I'm sure they will be happy to explain there wire theory with you.

Here's what I do.I don't judge a wire on how it's built untill it sounds good to me.Built quality goes along way with me after the fact.If the cable sounds like crap,it can be built as good as the best in the world,it doesn't matter at this point.Different guages,pretty colors,it doesn't matter unitl the wire can perform.Then built quality comes into play for me.

I say get your research on and learn why alot of companies use different guages to do different jobs.Some companies like Monstercable uses the same exact guage for all 4 conductors in there bi wire cables.

I'm not sure what or why which technic would be better.I'm no electrical engineer.But I do know what sounds good and what doesn't.

Wire is the finishing touch on a given system.Using the proper level of wire is what the goal is.Matching the correct sound with the correct sound(this is determined by the person building the system).Tweaking if you will.

Ixos is a really good wire company.I believe they have good reasons for what they do.Call em and find out first hand instead of getting opnions.
Thats what I do.

TroyD · 04-26-2003, 09:33 AM

There's always a reason....most of them are marketing driven.

BDT

mantis · 04-26-2003, 03:20 PM

everythings marketing driven huh Troy

TroyD · 04-26-2003, 04:51 PM

Not everything, but a lot of it, yes. To think otherwise is niave.

BDT

mantis · 04-26-2003, 05:07 PM

SO my question is how do you know what is and whats not?How my man how?

TroyD · 04-26-2003, 05:26 PM

Ok, Dan, I'm going to give a VERY short lecture on marketing (I spent a few years studying it so pay attention) , the whole premise of marketing is to position your product in such a way that people will buy it. It's a pretty complex issue. Nor am I suggesting that it's all smoke and mirrors or fundamentally dishonest. You can have the greatest product in the world but if you can't get anyone to buy it, you are still screwed. This is the fundamental premise, you have to convince people that your product is unique in such a way that they will want to buy it.

How do you decide if something is for you? It's like toilet paper, I try it, if I like it, I stick with it.

Don't kid yourself, marketing is a HUGE industry and the audio world is not immune from it.

BDT

mantis · 04-26-2003, 06:00 PM

Gotcha Troy,
I agree with that totally.Everything needs to be marketed somehow.It just seems you think things are marketing hype and not good products.I beg to differ on alot.

PETERNG · 04-29-2003, 06:42 PM

I think you're in a better shape if you use the same grade of speaker cable for the purpose of bi wiring, why go through the extra exercise to introduce trouble any way? Why using different kind of spark lugs to tune up your car? Why mixing tow different kind of anit-freeze for your cooling system? Why do you want the signal travel on two different road conditions to get to your speakers? I think you know the answer.

I stay out of the marketing issues, I do what make sense to me.

04-25-2003, 07:05 PM	#1
gacole2000 Polkster Member Sales Rating: (1) Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Springfield, MO Posts: 243	Yet again...a bi-wire question. I used IXOS Gamma 13 to bi-wire my CS400. However, most info I have seen uses a 13/15 set up. My question is: is it imperative to have different gages of wire for HF & LF in a bi-wire set up? Any input is appreciated. Thanks- Greg

04-25-2003, 09:16 PM	#8
HBombToo Polk Master Member Sales Rating: (1) Join Date: May 2002 Location: Funny Farm"no doubt there" Posts: 5,321	Its all about skin effect or the way the signal penetrates into the cable. Electron mobility resides on the surface of the material and I think its a bunch of bunk for audio or frequencies in the audio band but micro-wave is a different story. This is my engineering judgement and I'm sure there is an engineer out there that would disagree but I really don't give a shiite... minimize lossed and ensure good electrical connections and you'll be a happy camper. HBomb __________________ *WAREMTAE*

04-26-2003, 08:24 AM	#9
mantis Polk Guru Member Sales Rating: (10) Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Pa Posts: 9,552	HBombToo, why are the gloves out?relax man.Your opnion is as much value as the next guys..... gacole2000, Ixos has reasons for constructing there bi wire cables the way they do.Like KimberKable,they feel using different guages yield best performance for the job intended. If you really want to know why,call Ixos and ask.I'm sure they will be happy to explain there wire theory with you. Here's what I do.I don't judge a wire on how it's built untill it sounds good to me.Built quality goes along way with me after the fact.If the cable sounds like crap,it can be built as good as the best in the world,it doesn't matter at this point.Different guages,pretty colors,it doesn't matter unitl the wire can perform.Then built quality comes into play for me. I say get your research on and learn why alot of companies use different guages to do different jobs.Some companies like Monstercable uses the same exact guage for all 4 conductors in there bi wire cables. I'm not sure what or why which technic would be better.I'm no electrical engineer.But I do know what sounds good and what doesn't. Wire is the finishing touch on a given system.Using the proper level of wire is what the goal is.Matching the correct sound with the correct sound(this is determined by the person building the system).Tweaking if you will. Ixos is a really good wire company.I believe they have good reasons for what they do.Call em and find out first hand instead of getting opnions. Thats what I do. __________________ Dan My personal quest is to save to world of bad audio, one thread at a time.

04-26-2003, 09:33 AM	#10
TroyD Polk Guru Member Sales Rating: (3) Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: lookin' for fava beans and a nice chianti Posts: 11,209	There's always a reason....most of them are marketing driven. BDT __________________ That statement will probably offend someone. They need to know ahead of time that I don't give a sh*t. -G.B. Grand

04-25-2003, 07:25 PM	#2
Zero Stronzo Member Sales Rating: (4) Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Over Yonder Posts: 7,390	Gacole, Let me begin by congradulating you on making the decision to use Ixos. I have yet to find any cable/wire to exhibit a better value. While owning and evaluating the performance of the Ixos super-gamma bi-wire on a pair of LSi-9's, I switched between the high-pass and low-pass band. From the moment of that temporary experiment to my memory of it today, I have yet to conclude that a sonic difference indeed took place. The conducted test was offset from the beginning. I already had the pre-concieved notion that there would be a difference between the 13 gauge, and the 15 gauge terminations. When I switched them I felt there was indeed a difference, a loss in clarity if you will. However, the differences were subtle enough to leave me without conclusion. Going on my past experiences alone, I would not claim that it would be an imperative, giving the wire and the speaker we are dealing with. Since my test was inconclusive, perhaps you could conduct one yourself. The wire is cheap enough to take a little risk with....

04-25-2003, 07:32 PM	#3
gacole2000 Polkster Member Sales Rating: (1) Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Springfield, MO Posts: 243	I too am sold on IXOS. I use all their Gold interconects and I run 13 on front stage and 15 on 6.1 surrounds. Not to mention it is a GREAT value (it looks cool too)! I have the extra wire to experiment with, I was just wondering if the different gage effected which freq. went where, and by using the same gage on both???? thanks for the input- Greg

04-25-2003, 07:51 PM	#4
Zero Stronzo Member Sales Rating: (4) Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Over Yonder Posts: 7,390	Gacole, The idea behind the different gauges, if I remember correctly, is simply to provide the different bands with a certain amount of current. I have read that bass generally benefits from greater gauge wire, where as the high bands require less "heavy stuff". Unless the amp caters specifically to bi-wire connections, I would not see how the frequencies could be specified simply through the wire.

04-25-2003, 08:06 PM	#5
gacole2000 Polkster Member Sales Rating: (1) Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Springfield, MO Posts: 243	that's what I was thinking. Also, I seem to remeber a post here a while back asserting that in actuality, the HF should get the thicker wire. Did you see that? Greg

04-25-2003, 08:19 PM	#6
Zero Stronzo Member Sales Rating: (4) Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Over Yonder Posts: 7,390	Gacole, I remember reading that here as well. Though due to a lack of knowledge and a short-term memory, I failed to remember the reasoning behind the idea. I am sure someone here will enlighten both of us once more.

04-25-2003, 08:24 PM	#7
gacole2000 Polkster Member Sales Rating: (1) Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Springfield, MO Posts: 243	I as well, but I do remember it was a heated (as usual) debate and was supported with lots of technical mumbo jumbo-for what that's worth. :-) Greg

04-26-2003, 03:20 PM	#11
mantis Polk Guru Member Sales Rating: (10) Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Pa Posts: 9,552	everythings marketing driven huh Troy

04-26-2003, 04:51 PM	#12
TroyD Polk Guru Member Sales Rating: (3) Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: lookin' for fava beans and a nice chianti Posts: 11,209	Not everything, but a lot of it, yes. To think otherwise is niave. BDT

04-26-2003, 05:07 PM	#13
mantis Polk Guru Member Sales Rating: (10) Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Pa Posts: 9,552	SO my question is how do you know what is and whats not?How my man how?

04-26-2003, 05:26 PM	#14
TroyD Polk Guru Member Sales Rating: (3) Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: lookin' for fava beans and a nice chianti Posts: 11,209	Ok, Dan, I'm going to give a VERY short lecture on marketing (I spent a few years studying it so pay attention) , the whole premise of marketing is to position your product in such a way that people will buy it. It's a pretty complex issue. Nor am I suggesting that it's all smoke and mirrors or fundamentally dishonest. You can have the greatest product in the world but if you can't get anyone to buy it, you are still screwed. This is the fundamental premise, you have to convince people that your product is unique in such a way that they will want to buy it. How do you decide if something is for you? It's like toilet paper, I try it, if I like it, I stick with it. Don't kid yourself, marketing is a HUGE industry and the audio world is not immune from it. BDT

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04-26-2003, 06:00 PM	#15
mantis Polk Guru Member Sales Rating: (10) Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Pa Posts: 9,552	Gotcha Troy, I agree with that totally.Everything needs to be marketed somehow.It just seems you think things are marketing hype and not good products.I beg to differ on alot.

04-29-2003, 06:42 PM	#16
PETERNG Polkazoid Member Sales Rating: (0) Join Date: Jul 2001 Posts: 918	I think you're in a better shape if you use the same grade of speaker cable for the purpose of bi wiring, why go through the extra exercise to introduce trouble any way? Why using different kind of spark lugs to tune up your car? Why mixing tow different kind of anit-freeze for your cooling system? Why do you want the signal travel on two different road conditions to get to your speakers? I think you know the answer. I stay out of the marketing issues, I do what make sense to me.